skill difference

[MerCyKiL]

it has come to my attention, playing for the last couple years, that there is a distinct difference in skill among players in the AC community. Two groups exist: the "elite" and the "noobs". A small portion of the community falls in between.

below is a demo to a game i just played on an MyS server. my stats: 4 flags, 26 kills, and 28 deaths (something like that). this may seem like an average game to you guys but it was done entirely with knife.
http://www.mediafire.com/?hrakl8v8knf82er

though a lack of practice may be suspect in the ever-widening gap of skill, a number of other factors may come into play. for instance: playing with 30 fps. ive done it before and there was no way i could play competitively. some players may not have mice. others may be too young to have fully developed motor skills needed to play.

my point is that maybe the game should be easier to play. i recently shunned the idea of Waffles' "changing crosshairs"

(thread for reference) http://forum.cubers.net/thread-6142.html

i now think things like this should be implemented.

some of you prefer that the gap between elites and other players should be kept wide. that's ok. but i think making this game easier to play would liven the community, attract more gamers, and drastically expand the "clan scene"

discuss...

[Roflcopter]

Well SVN has harder to manage weapons so if anything I think the gap will widen. Generally competitive games like UrT still have harder to manage weapons. But I support alot easier to manage weapons because they just feel nicer to play with and it doesn't really affect hi-level games.

[#M|A#Wolf]

One of the competitive goals of the game is for the "noobs" to reach the, as you call, "elite" level. Making the game easier will just make the game less competitive, and have no point for the people that already play at a high level. I disagree with your argument that some people are too young to have proper motor skills. There are people like Xenon that are 12 years old but are still considered a skilled player.

The way I see it, is that people manage to make their aim one of the best they can be, but then get frustrated when they can't beat the best of the best. Aim is one of the easiest thing to master in the game, all you need is a few weeks of practice and a good mouse. There are many things that make a player "good", and by playing everyday pubs or clan matches with your average clans won't cut it. If you want be in the "elite" and be the best of the best, you need to play with the best of the best and be in the best clan you can be.

For the fps part, you can't blame the players that can get an fps of 150+. We understand that many players come play this game because their computers are old and can't handle many games, but I really think that making the game easier because your fps is too low is not the way to go. If you're interested if being one the best you need to be aware that you will need good computer specs in the end.

[Boomhauer]

...

Didn't you say something negative about snipers when we were in GS's server today?

I am not so sure this gap exists to the extent you say. Assault Rifle has made a lot of people who otherwise suck competitive players.....
I know of a LOT of players who can barely move around the map with half a brain who stand still and aim and get mucho kills. AR as it is has slowed the game dramatically, and made it easier for people who suck to do well.

In other words, I think you are exactly backwards in your theory.
We need to attract less golden-gun gaymers, and more players who put in time and practice with a weapon that takes more skill because they love the game.

*ALSO: there are way too many clans as it is. Seems like twice a week some player who started playing last month is starting one. After the release of the next version, hopefully a lot of these new "AR" clans will go away.

[Oracle]

"AR" clans

wat.



Go B} the carbine clan \o/

[Cactus]

I feel the game is already easy enough to play, and as Boomhauer pointed out, weapons such as the AR have made it so that even first time players can get kills.

This being said, I feel that there are many one-time players in the pubs. I'm not a server owner though so I can't be sure, and unless a tonne of people are aliasing (I know quite a few do) there are many names that are never seen again.

[Ronald_Reagan]

Yes I agree. To do this I suggest four measures:

• We remove all weapons. Weapons are the source of this problem. Noobs cannot kill effectively with them, whereas "elite" can. This imbalance must be resolved.
  
• We remove the ability to move. Noobs obviously do not know how to dodge bullets as effectively as elite.
  
• We remove all 3D aspects. Although in some technical respects, AC is not 3D, we still remove all 3D aspects. All noobs have bad computers, that probably cannot run anything much more than pacman with 500+ fps. On that note, we should also reduce textures to the same ones used in pacman. This will give noobs and elites equal footing, as noob and elite computers.
  
• We remove the server. When the server was introduced into AC, so was lag. Naturally the noobs had more lag than the elite. By removing the server we remove lag and so the noobs and elite will have the same ping (none).
  

These measures will be implemented in AC 1.3

[InitialSAW]

If there are players that come online once, realize that they for some ungodly reason can't play as well as everyone else and, as a result, just quit the game for life because they are that impatient, I'd rather not have them taking up slots.

[Waffles]

I dont see the connection between the crosshair idea and an easier game. Some people's minds work differently. I know of a game that has color change in one of it's crosshairs and it is by no means considered a "noob game." I think the gap between "elites" and "noobs" is made wider by no mid-skill clans existing really. From what i've seen, new clans show up, get battered about by more established ones, some members leave, the clan dies. I think the AC| thing was an interesting concept to teach new players the joys of the game but the execution is a little off the mark. But, you shouldn't change a game to be easier or harder, you should make it fun to play. Currently there are three support groups, the mass downloads from the pubbers, the competitive players, and the community players. Some people fall into two of these (and it's obviously more complex than that). The devs have done a good job of trying to cater to all the masses, but I think that making a game that has a competitive edge will keep the veterans coming back as well as make the game more interesting.

The crosshair is a good idea, people are just opposed to change.

[pkkiller]

Time Changes, Games changes ~ that all i have to say.

[Zarjio]

I just thought it would be useful to point out that this skill gap exists in all games. It is normal. AC is not any different in this respect.

Most people don't invest hundreds of hours into playing a single game. They download or buy a game, play it for a few weeks or months, and then move onto another game - or, they play several games at once, and they never get "really good" at any of them.

This happens with Halo, it happens with CoD, and of course it's going to happen with AC too. At any given moment, probably 80%+ of the players playing AC are noobs.

Most people don't stick around long enough to get involved in the community or even get decently good. It's not because AC sucks, or because they have 30 FPS, or because they are bad at games in general. Most people simply don't stick with one game for very long.

[Edward]

There will always be a difference between 'pros' and 'noobs'. If there was no difference, why would you play as much as you can to improve if at the end you stay at the same level? I wouldn't play a game where I cant dominate at lest few 'noobs' :p

[Oracle]

Remove stuff

Simple solution: Remove the players. It is human differences causing this constantly-widening "skill gap."
Turn AC into a bot match spectacle where we see never-ending equal fights between bots. I foresee many viewers, and even more profits.

[JohnnyFivestar]

Remove stuff

Simple solution: Remove the players. It is human differences causing this constantly-widening "skill gap."
Turn AC into a bot match spectacle where we see never-ending equal fights between bots. I foresee many viewers, and even more profits.

I love this post more than [insert deity of choice] loves you.
..or something along those lines.

[MerCyKiL]

...

Didn't you say something negative about snipers when we were in GS's server today?

erm...no. i snipe myself...but i saw the comment i think you over reacted lawl


your argument is interesting but i think my point stands. i think we are looking at different "AR players". I'm focusing primarily on players from oNe and MyS. These players move around the map with at least some strategy. The players you are talking about (and I know who they are. theyre players that literally sit in a corner on a map as you said and shoot) would have a pretty tough time competing with the players I'm talking about.

While there really isnt a lot of things to do to cure camping (i suppose edit the maps???), there can be things done for players who do run around and make a valid effort at scoring flags/making frags etc but just do not have the agility and aim of stronger players.

take "quickening" for example. you can find him often on the BoB or TyD ladder servers. the guy has been playing for years but overall has a negative K/D ratio. he doesnt camp. he doesnt use a shotgun. but not matter how hard he tries, i still see him everytime with a rotten score. to transform a player like this into a better one by changing the characteristics of the game might make improvement a short cut for him but it would add another competitor into the AC community.

the point of making this game easier, as i see it, is to revive a withering multiplayer game. all i hear on these forums is "AC is dead". this is one of the reasons why. the game is just too hard for some. to make AC come alive again, you need to make it appealing to a larger audience

---

I dont see the connection between the crosshair idea and an easier game.

making the crosshair light up gives the player a cue to shoot. this may sound silly but i think some players actually dont give an effort all the time to shoot.

before i learned that reaction time is everything, i used to see many players across the map and never bothered to shoot at them. they shot at me of course and the result was usually a death for me. but for those that, have half a brain (as Boomhauer said) and dont learn to shoot no matter what, can be subconciously swayed into shooting when an indicator gives them an instruction to.

just my hypothesis on what i think an interactive crosshair would do.

---

I think the gap between "elites" and "noobs" is made wider by no mid-skill clans existing really. From what i've seen, new clans show up, get battered about by more established ones, some members leave, the clan dies.

^^^definitely this

[#M|A#Wolf]

take "quickening" for example. you can find him often on the BoB or TyD ladder servers. the guy has been playing for years but overall has a negative K/D ratio. he doesnt camp. he doesnt use a shotgun. but not matter how hard he tries, i still see him everytime with a rotten score.

You expect a pub player to become good by just playing pubs? I've seen him as well, his tactical awareness is dreadful.

[MerCyKiL]

The way I see it, is that people manage to make their aim one of the best they can be, but then get frustrated when they can't beat the best of the best. Aim is one of the easiest thing to master in the game, all you need is a few weeks of practice and a good mouse.

some people dont have a few weeks. some people dont have the resources to get a good mouse.

i guess my view is, to attract a more lively community, sacrifices in the difficulty of gameplay must be made. i would understand why this point would be rejected though

---

You expect a pub player to become good by just playing pubs? I've seen him as well, his tactical awareness is dreadful.

true. but making fragging easier for him could negate his dreadful awareness

---

This being said, I feel that there are many one-time players in the pubs. I'm not a server owner though so I can't be sure, and unless a tonne of people are aliasing (I know quite a few do) there are many names that are never seen again.

these first timers are the ones im talking about. you dont see a lot of them at the top of the scoreboard right? maybe they get frustrated and decide to leave

---

There will always be a difference between 'pros' and 'noobs'. If there was no difference, why would you play as much as you can to improve if at the end you stay at the same level? I wouldn't play a game where I cant dominate at lest few 'noobs' :p

this is a good point. im not saying everyone should be amazing. there will always be a few retards out there who wouldnt even be able to take advantage of the easement in gameplay. im not proposing anything major. i think small things like waffles' crosshair idea would provide a little more competition thats all.

[Vanquish]

If anything, AC should be made harder imo. We shouldn't have to tailor the game so that public players become pros.

[RCJD]

I just thought it would be useful to point out that this skill gap exists in all games. It is normal. AC is not any different in this respect.

I agree with Zarj, as well as Wolf's post.

(RR also made a great point, quite humorously ^^ )

If skill level was "evened-out", wouldn't the game be rather boring?

Having a variety of skill levels works well - clans or players at one "level" play together and learn one from one another. They can look up to those better than them. One day, they improve to become the next "level".

That was how I personally learned AC (and still continue learning) - through many many generous mentors in the community, of different level.

Yes, you can take into account other factors - connection, hardware, mods, etc.
But that's life.
AC may be a simple game, but lol, it's not some flash game where connection/hardware is often irrelevant.

So in conclusion, in every action game you'll come across players who were able to buy equipment, have good connection, etc.

Can't this analogy be made about human civilization too? Every second, more than 1 child is born. Odds are more likely for this child to be born in a poor, third-world country where there is less opportunity for his/her future.

That's life.

I will never spend money to go buy a great computer, mouse, keyboard, pad for gaming. Maybe this hinders me from improving in the game, or, maybe I have already hit my "max" (being a good gamer is not all about hardware). I guess I used to think this was unfair, but going back to the human civilization analogy, that's life.

[Waffles]

If anything, awareness should be favored more. I am fucking terrible at CS:GO for example simply because I do not play it often and I'm not used to the maps, etc. etc., excuses excuses. I still like the game though because it pushes me in certain ways and I have to react differently to different situations then what I'm used to. Mechanical skill keeps the action in actiongame. I can see your points about tailored gameplay, but honestly if people want less of a challenge they can practice against bots. Thats what I do with any new fps i try, get the feel for the game a bit and then get better by trial and error vs smarter opponents. The appeal of gaming is the gratification you get. Whether that is getting your first frag, then leading the pub your in, then getting in to a clan you want or whatever, without difficulty there would be no clear goal to attain. That is merely for me of course.

[Zarjio]

I think the gap between "elites" and "noobs" is made wider by no mid-skill clans existing really. From what i've seen, new clans show up, get battered about by more established ones, some members leave, the clan dies.

^^^definitely this

I don't entirely agree with this. There are certainly very few mid-skill clans, but there are some. I would even possibly say that B} is one of them.

The problem is that mid-level clans either A) get better and become "elite", or B) quit (as Waffles pointed out).

I think this just gets back to what I was saying earlier: most people don't play a single game for years and years. Noob and mid-level clans don't usually last because the people who are in them don't care enough about the game to continue playing it. Those who do will eventually get better and join better clans. It's a "cycle of clans", really.

[MorganKell]

While there really isnt a lot of things to do to cure camping (i suppose edit the maps???), there can be things done for players who do run around and make a valid effort at scoring flags/making frags etc but just do not have the agility and aim of stronger players.

take "quickening" for example. you can find him often on the BoB or TyD ladder servers. the guy has been playing for years but overall has a negative K/D ratio. he doesnt camp. he doesnt use a shotgun. but not matter how hard he tries, i still see him everytime with a rotten score. to transform a player like this into a better one by changing the characteristics of the game might make improvement a short cut for him but it would add another competitor into the AC community.

the point of making this game easier, as i see it, is to revive a withering multiplayer game. all i hear on these forums is "AC is dead". this is one of the reasons why. the game is just too hard for some. to make AC come alive again, you need to make it appealing to a larger audience

Did I just read this right? Cure camping by editing maps?? Dafuq #1. "he doesn't use a shotgun..." Dafuq #2. That whole last paragraph / blurb thing. DAFUQ #3. Finally this...

"i guess my view is, to attract a more lively community, sacrifices in the difficulty of gameplay must be made. i would understand why this point would be rejected though"

D A F U Q Y O U O N ? ? ? ? ?

No no and no. No no no no no and no? Yes NO.

We will continue to accept only the greatest of the AC-ryan race into our presence! Thou will never again consider such an insulting proposal!

By the way, I'd like to thank Reagan for his post's sarcasm. Loved it! Now if only I could find that darn Thank You button... Hmm where did the damn thing go?!

[kleinkariert]

...

yeah, derail one of the few threads where the guys don't flame but discuss. well done, dev.

and yes, i'm aware of the irony.

[Undead]

hope you understand that the pub game isn't representative of AC's true gameplay, more of a free for all fuck around. if i want to piss around and murder an entire server with a knife ill go onto a pub.

if you want better players, find a way to get new players to stick around and give them a way to play in a match environment with people at their level. you will not get much better from playing on pubs because they are shotgun infested shit fests.

[MykeGregory]

i must say. i think the real culprit for 'noobs' is lack of practise and almost common sence.

It should be common sense the you have to keep moving to avoid being hit, but while saying this hundreds of 'noobs' will standing still and spraying AR..

[YesWeCamp]

Hey MerCykill, there are people that dont care about their score. I dont give a flying fuck if im 1-30. As long as im having fun with the people. Most people dont play to become better, but just to have fun (assumption).

[XFA]

Undead is right, the answer is re-balancing the weapons
On a side note, anyone else noticed that we have been playing 1.1.0.4 for over two years now?

[castiel]

Bring back hiskill.

[SKB]

You expect a pub player to become good by just playing pubs? I've seen him as well, his tactical awareness is dreadful.

true. but making fragging easier for him could negate his dreadful awareness

You realise you want to ruin the game so low tier players could feel warm and fuzzy inside? There's no reason to ruin the game by making it easier to kill people - that will only make good players even better. A player who doesn't put effort to get better will always be bad.

I'd rather devs improved main website (especially download page) and educate new payers how to get started. We (devs/community) need to improve "conversion rate", not make a game any twerp could play. Now, how we improve that "conversion rate" is actual discussion material.

[Cemer]

mid skill clans die out really fast, so there is not as easy a learning curve