Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[J.M.Kane]

Edward: In my opinion, SMG can't really keep up with an AR at the moment.

[MerCyKiL]

I absolutely refuse to read through 34 friggin pages of thread so someone bring me up to speed. AR still has rifle jump right? And smg still recoils like a bitch in heat? And shotty has or hasn't gotten it's hitting power back? I'm just going to assume the grenades still suck major nuts and are still only 1 per pickup? (accept LSS yes we know)

here, this might help...

Since the old thread is falling apart, here's a new one.

SVN sources are up-to-date now, so you can compile your own if you like. Bins have been provided, sorry no mac bins though. I hope they work properly. I will now list the main diffrences from the current 1.1.0.4 version once again:

SMG: Damage is now 15.5. Handling is inbetween 1.0.4 and 1.1

AR: Damage is now 22. Handling is inbetween 1.0.4 and 1.1

Pistol: 10 bullets, slightly faster, a tad more recoil.

Sniper: 83 damage. Happy medium between 1.0.4 and 1.1
Sniper+pistol combo is possible, until you pick up a helmet. Pretty much behaves like 1.0.4 really. (just less coarse).

Shotgun: Complete overhaul. Less maximum damage, better distribution of damage over range. Less random. Aim well and you will get some guaranteed damage. Extra damage when really close.
No more missing by a meter while still getting huge damage in. A bit harder to handle.

Armour has not been changed since 1.1.0.4.

Please test it out and let us know what you think! Some stuff might be buggy. Main focus is the balance at this very moment.

[Waffles]

@edward,
the number of bullets matter, but 15 is still ample to make a quick, clean kill. SMG might become slightly better for fragging purposes, but with increased recoil and the spread at long ranges, AR stays a better weapon at longer distances, and not an overall whoopass weapon. plus, AR still has the rifle sprint option which makes it tactically better for flagging. Overall, i think the AR bullet reduction is a great step in the right direction, especially if spread was lowered a bit (or confined to a diamond instead of a square as discussed previously). Cheers

[Edward]

My problem is the SMG (and I am playing with). The smg have 30 bullets and the AR only 15 (15x2=30). The SMG mag have 90 bullets and the AR only 45 (45x2=90). Ok You decreased the potential damage-power of the AR. And what about the SMG? Still the same. Maybe I am unapprised but I just comment what I see.

AR = 22dmg in the SVN right? Actually it is 24dmg right?
SVN : 22 * 15 = 330
1.1.0.4 : 24 * 20 = 480

SMG = 15,5dmg in the SVN right? Actually it is 15dmg right?
SVN : 15,5 * 30 = 465
1.1.0.4 : 15 * 30 = 450

I speak about the potential of damages so according to me it sux like that.
SVN : SMG = 465 and AR = 330
Now : SMG = 450 and AR = 480

So SMG is able to make 450dmg now and is able to make 465dmg in the SVN
The AR is able to make 480dmg now and is able to make 330dmg in the svn
SMG = +15
AR = -150
Are you fucking kidding me?

Combo kills like that :

will not be possible anymore with the AR but more than ever with the smg.
You killed the AR for gemas and pubs.
I know what you are doing and there is no more words I could use to express myself better.

PS : Maybe I am wrong but try to explain it to me then cause yeah, I didnt read tehh 34 pages

[billyumreal]

Guns have to look like guns.

I've seen many 20 round rifles, 30 round smgs, but this proportional stuff is looking sick to me.
20 gives you options and covering time. 15 gives you... an always reloading sitted duck.
The guns are killing, keep the balance of around 480 dmg, so good players can do monster kills and as dmg is high, noobs can kill those monsters as well.
If balance is the key, put the AR with 24 dmg, the smg with 16 dmg. Both will be exactly the same.
The pistol with 10 rounds looks ridiculous, i know 15, 12, 9, 8, 7 rounded pistols, but never heard of 10.
Other guns are... working.

Any comments about my last suggestion of having another option of pistol? Nobody commented! Was it a bad idea?
Just remembering:
Pistol with 12 rounds, the way it is.
Revolver with 6 rounds, 24 dmg, slow repeater and slow to reload, but very accurate.
Remembering of the Sniper+Revolver combo... it could balance more for everybody.

[Roflcopter]

I'd happily accept 15-bullet AR clips in return for decreased maximum spread.

[billyumreal]

ridiculous... 15 rounds clips...
Whats next? 2 rounds shotgun? 3 rounds knife?

[MerCyKiL]

Whats next? 2 rounds shotgun?

omg for the love of god yes

[#M|A#Wolf]

I remember I once suggested for the shotgun to become double barreled, somewhat like this one. I don't think it's a bad idea at all, reload time could be reduced a few milliseconds and shotgun players would just need to learn to time their shots and reloads. Of course, it would also help with the shotgun spamming in pubs.

[Cho]

2 rounds shotgun? 3 rounds knife?

Double barrel a good idea but the damage must be reduced.
If only knife could be thrown!!

[Nightmare]

F1 double barrel shotgun.
I'd want it to be stronger than current shotty though.

[MorganKell]

Shotgun4Life!!

[Nightmare]

Shotgun4Life!!

<3

[Vanquish]

SMG = +15
AR = -150

Doesn't seem balanced to me.

[Roflcopter]

ridiculous... 15 rounds clips...
Whats next? 2 rounds shotgun? 3 rounds knife?

15 bullets would be enough if you were hitting bullets that were on target. The only reason it takes about 14 bullets to kill with good accuracy at medium range at the moment is spread.

[Harps]

15 bullets would be enough if you were hitting bullets that were on target. The only reason it takes about 14 bullets to kill with good accuracy at medium range at the moment is spread.

You do realise that 0.93 had a 15 bullet AR and the reason it is a 20 clip (like 0.92 and before) is because of balance, right?

One potential solution I can find to the current weapon balance problem, that keeps the game at it's current pace in gameplay is as follows.

As health and armour spawn frequently (armour is 25 seconds, health is 20 seconds [decreasing in time on players added] http://assault.cubers.net/docs/introduction.html ) it would make sense not to 'nerf' weapons and reduce clip sizes and add recoil/spread, but infact to reduce it.

AR: keep as is
SMG: lower damage per bullet, remove recoil/lower it by a lot
Shotgun: reduce damage, fix spread pattern
Sniper: keep as is
Carbine: keep as is

this should keep the momentum of gameplay the same

[paulmuaddibKA]

SMG: lower damage per bullet, remove recoil/lower it by a lot

O.o

[billyumreal]

Have you ever tried to increase the number of guns?
Use one of the models that players do, give the guy the credits and dont screw the gameplay...

Example:
2 ARs...
AR1=15 rounds exact
AR2=20 rounds misser, just like the current one... but dont take it off! There are guys who like it the way it is!!!

The double barrel shotgun is great, remember Doom!

But here comes again... Stop DECREASING damage of the other guns!!! The sub is already perfect, the other guns sucks, ok!

[#M|A#Wolf]

But here comes again... Stop DECREASING damage of the other guns!!! The sub is already perfect, the other guns sucks, ok!

Be thoughtful of others, not everybody else is a submachine expert like you.

[Roflcopter]

You do realise that 0.93 had a 15 bullet AR and the reason it is a 20 clip (like 0.92 and before) is because of balance, right?

0.93 is irrelevant. Good balance now doesn't depend on the past. If you'd like to evidence what has worked or failed in the past make your argument directly.

As health and armour spawn frequently (armour is 25 seconds, health is 20 seconds [decreasing in time on players added] http://assault.cubers.net/docs/introduction.html ) it would make sense not to 'nerf' weapons and reduce clip sizes and add recoil/spread, but infact to reduce it.

Amour does take 25 seconds to spawn, but health packs' respawn times depends on the number of players playing. In 3v3 it only takes 10 seconds, in 2v2 it takes 15 seconds, in 1v1 it takes 20 seconds.

AR: keep as is
SMG: lower damage per bullet, remove recoil/lower it by a lot
Shotgun: reduce damage, fix spread pattern
Sniper: keep as is
Carbine: keep as is

this should keep the momentum of gameplay the same

SMG is generally believed to be weaker than AR and already kills in the same or longer than AR. It's also already incredibly easy to aim currently due to its low recoil. Carbine is not even a good weapon in ac_douze which seems a pretty clear indication it needs buffing.

[Nightmare]

* Nightmare demands the carbine gets the same kill speed as ar/smg. Or Else.

[Harps]

Amour does take 25 seconds to spawn, but health packs' respawn times depends on the number of players playing. In 3v3 it only takes 10 seconds, in 2v2 it takes 15 seconds, in 1v1 it takes 20 seconds.

This is exactly what I said in my post, sorry if it was unclear, I was tired. I linked the doc's to show spawn times and I believe that faster spawning items further substantiates my argument that 'nerfing' (decreasing the effectiveness) of weapons is a really bad idea, when it comes to pickup orientated gameplay.

SMG is generally believed to be weaker than AR and already kills in the same or longer than AR. It's also already incredibly easy to aim currently due to its low recoil. Carbine is not even a good weapon in ac_douze which seems a pretty clear indication it needs buffing.

SMG should be made more accessible, by lowering recoil it would be easier to aim. Personally I don't have problems aiming well with either gun, I find it easier with the Assault Rifle as recoil is far easier to manage. The argument that Assault Rifle is greatly 'imbalanced' has been blown out of proportion.
Carbine is a great weapon. You reference ac_douze in your arguement, however this map isn't even designed for Assault Cube gameplay. Makke made it for cube and it was stuck into ac for nostalgia.. Try the carbine in CTF/TDM/TSURV. I see the role of the weapon as a 'finisher', it's hitscan and deals it's damage highly effectively.

[Undead]

You reference ac_douze in your arguement, however this map isn't even designed for Assault Cube gameplay

and it still manages to be the best map for 1vs1.

Try the carbine in CTF/TDM/TSURV. I see the role of the weapon as a 'finisher'

please play a clan match vs good players using carbine and you will see that it is simply does not have a use, 3 AR/smgs will just make the carbine player a weak link. its a fun weapon tho lool plz dont remove it.

i don't really post here because all this discussion is really pointless. larry just loves arguing (source: internet psychoanalysis) and everyone else here doesn't have any idea about the game or they love to smear brown matter all over the forum.

[jAcKRoCk*]

I kinda lost hope of a new release.

[billyumreal]

The 1.1.0.4 will still work? I'll NOT play the new one.

I said the Smg is perfect the ironic way. YOU took it wrong.
I dont like smgs, just use it for knowing other guns pros 'n cons...

I am a huge fan of Carbines, but fast semi-auto ones, AC's Carbine is slow, i dont like it.

I think you should remember that there are at least 3 ways of battles...

The suicidal battle, when you enter a door shooting up even you own mother to get a frag...
(SG n SMG do it just great!!!)

The tactical battle, when you give covering fire for friends, shoot and hide, or have a cover to resist more.
(Every gun can do it right, but the SG, AR n Carbine respectively are the best for it)

The losing ground (Sun Tzu) when you are surrounded, kill the first (might be luck), but someone else appears and you should've saved bullets, because reloading will kill you.

I think you're confusing things, smg is not supposed to be an AR. It is a fast shooter and as is very light, it spreads and looses far targets with ease. I think Smg should have a smaller recoil. But not hit as far as ARs.

AC lacks large mags guns. The more balanced weapon is the AR. Its clip of 20 is balanced, but not overpowered. 30 Shots would be OverP.

If the guy will use long distance, use the Carbine. I Defend 20 bullets mag, think 15 will shoot AR downstairs.

And still defend the position of AC having more guns... Models exists, coding is done, Its up to good will.

[#M|A#Wolf]

lol you're thinking too hard

[VenteX]

To the people that claim balance is "stuck"

If you can't think of how much to increase damage/spread/etc...
...and you can't think of how much to decrease damage/spread/etc...

...It's probably at it's sweet spot and needs to stop being screwed around with.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go butcher the use of more ellipsis

[MerCyKiL]

for shotgun: same damage as now. double barrel. same reload time. F1.

[billyumreal]

Lets assault the cube!

[Roflcopter]

for shotgun: same damage as now. double barrel. same reload time. F1.

So we're going to make a weak weapon weaker?