Poll: Should the devs remove map requisites?
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Yes
96.30%
26 96.30%
No
3.70%
1 3.70%
Total 27 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

Mapmaking size restrictions [RANT]
#1
Hello everyone, I want to give my opinion on why the 'map requisites' suck. I'm talking about the height limit and the area limit on maps during mapmaking. Not only do these limits limit creativity, they make mapmaking a pain, and are only a detriment to the game.

First of all, disabling large maps really removes the unique quality of the game. Assaultcube does not have the same reputation as the big-name games like COD or MW, but the unique community takes care of that. The plethora of custom maps adds a certain touch to it that makes it different, and fun in its own way. Examples are maps such as twintowers, assault.camper, etc., which used to be popular. When you force people into these constraints, you're making the game similar to the rest of the popular ones-- badly. If it can't be as good as the rest, who would want to play a game that's simply a worse version of others? If you allow people to make maps as they wish, they'll naturally gain and lose popularity, and the good ones will be seeded out with the test of time. So what that the game has taken a different direction than initially intended. You should embrace those changes and tailor the game to the community that actually plays it!

Furthermore, some users cite 'promoting creativity' as the reason that these requisites exist. So- by making smaller maps, I'm being creative? I can still create garbage maps, they'll just be smaller! "Work with what you have" doesn't work, because instead of trying to create smaller maps, people will opt not to make maps at all (like me). Why not leave the people that want to play those maps alone, and have designated servers with these restrictions? Applying it to the whole game doesn't make you have to be more creative. It limits creativity.

Games, like Assaultcube, are made for the enjoyment of playing, so why take away many users' enjoyment, by forcing them into the restrictions you've set? By enforcing these requisites, you haven't made the game better. You've taken away a portion of something that's already existed. Imagine a ferris wheel ride with painted over windows, and that's essentially what you've done. So now that some time has passed, how has the game improved? You've lost some of your user-base? Maps are smaller? I'm not so sure those are improvements and now you know why.

I heard someone say that their computer lags, but that post was from 2010.
We're at the time and age that our computers are easily able to render any map at 200 fps vs computers five years ago. So why do these requisites still exist? I also heard an argument that people don't want to play large maps because they're ugly (e.g. twintowers, assault.camper)-- Who cares? When you select a server, you see the map- so PICK A DIFFERENT ONE! Other people certainly do want to play them! These maps have coexisted with the game for many years, and now you've just cut them, and future ones like them out.

Lastly, I would like to briefly mention GEMA maps. One of the most creative and unique unofficial mapmodes that has its own sub-community- now has vast restrictions. Large maps that create a challenge now have to look like garbage, because the space needs to be filled up to conform to the requisites. Ironically, in an effort to make the maps looks better, you've butchered how a significant portion of maps look.

I hope this rant reaches the devs who can see my point of view. I will gladly debate this topic. Thanks for reading if you made it through.


Here's my proposal. You remove the requisites. No more height or area restrictions. Servers that would like to play small maps will do just that, and servers that want to play large ones will as well.


TL;DR:
Requisites suck because they take away the unique character of the game, limit creativity (not promote it), and take a heavy toll on gema maps. Our pc's are capable of running any map nowadays anyway. Take away the restrictions and let the community speak for itself.

Thanks, (.
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#2
Yeah thanks for bringing this up. This topic is actually already in discussion in the PG so we shall see what comes of it :D
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#3
(07 Jun 15, 08:20PM)((( Wrote: Furthermore, some users cite 'promoting creativity' as the reason that these requisites exist. So- by making smaller maps, I'm being creative? I can still create garbage maps, they'll just be smaller! "Work with what you have" doesn't work, because instead of trying to create smaller maps, people will opt not to make maps at all (like me). Why not leave the people that want to play those maps alone, and have designated servers with these restrictions? Applying it to the whole game doesn't make you have to be more creative. It limits creativity.

I also heard an argument that people don't want to play large maps because they're ugly (e.g. twintowers, assault.camper)-- Who cares? When you select a server, you see the map- so PICK A DIFFERENT ONE! Other people certainly do want to play them! These maps have coexisted with the game for many years, and now you've just cut them, and future ones like them out.

These are some points that I pointed out in the Proving Grounds (private forum used to strengthen communication between devs and some experienced players/mappers etc). You've hit the nail on the head to be honest. Thanks.
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#4
Amen
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#5
Thanks for your support guys! Is it possible to view what's going on in PG?
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#6
Well you'll have to be added into it by a moderator/developer, I'm not sure how strict they are with who they invite but it's usually only people who've been around for a while/contributed to the game some. The conversation is more or less turning out support for multiple tabs in the master sever allowing devs to separate official maps and customs, so that newbies don't spawn on @camper and get confused. Which would mean they could remove restrictions and noob mappers could do whatever they want without it clogging up the master server and ruining ac's image.
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#7
(07 Jun 15, 10:13PM)Z3R0 Wrote: Well you'll have to be added into it by a moderator/developer, I'm not sure how strict they are with who they invite but it's usually only people who've been around for a while/contributed to the game some.

Ok, that makes sense, thanks. I'll just wait for them to update what they've agreed upon.

(07 Jun 15, 10:13PM)Z3R0 Wrote: The conversation is more or less turning out support for multiple tabs in the master sever allowing devs to separate official maps and customs, so that newbies don't spawn on @camper and get confused. Which would mean they could remove restrictions and noob mappers could do whatever they want without it clogging up the master server and ruining ac's image.

That sounds like a good idea, and I wholeheartedly support it. Do the 'noob' maps really clog the master server up? And if they weren't on master, where would they be? In terms of image, I think that the custom maps really represent AC and should be part of its image! (That's what my first argument was about.)
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#8
They'd still be on the masterserver, you'd just have to get to the 'custom maps' tab or choose to join 'custom map servers' in the multiplayer menu.

In other words, new players will be lead into the direction of playing official maps, while giving mappers full freedom.
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#9
(07 Jun 15, 10:44PM)Nightmare Wrote: They'd still be on the masterserver, you'd just have to get to the 'custom maps' tab or choose to join 'custom map servers' in the multiplayer menu.

In other words, new players will be lead into the direction of playing official maps, while giving mappers full freedom.

Oh ok, Z3R0's comment was a bit confusing. Then that makes sense, that sounds good.
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#10
The old DEV logic/argument was that players were too stupid to distinguish good maps from crap ones and so they needed guidance in the form of hard to understand restrictions. 

I dont want to talk about this because a lot of us tried to reason with devs many years ago.
AC has and always will be about egos and politics.

Quote:(((

Do the 'noob' maps really clog the master server up? And if they weren't on master, where would they be? In terms of image, I think that the custom maps really represent AC and should be part of its image! (That's what my first argument was about.)

If you compare the current state of ac to the one from the 1.0/1.1 transition fase, obviously not.
The "noob" map and moded server thing should have been cherished and not banished:D


Then ac could have stood the test of time and new tecnhology in gaming. 
The huge player base of the past was a capital that was wasted. 

Hey, but who cares?
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#11
(07 Jun 15, 11:25PM)|HP| Wrote: The old DEV logic/argument was that players were too stupid to distinguish good maps from crap ones and so they needed guidance in the form of hard to understand restrictions. 

I dont want to talk about this because a lot of us tried to reason with devs many years ago.
AC has and always will be about egos and politics.

Yeah that doesn't make much sense...  the restrictions aren't even relevant! Reading the old posts gave me that impression as well, everyone was extremely closed-minded.

(07 Jun 15, 11:25PM)|HP| Wrote: If you compare the current state of ac to the one from the 1.0/1.1 transition fase, obviously not.
The "noob" map and moded server thing should have been cherished and not banished:D


Then ac could have stood the test of time and new tecnhology in gaming. 
The huge player base of the past was a capital that was wasted. 

Hey, but who cares?

Yep, it plays exactly the same from like five years ago.. except now its worse. I wholeheartedly agree with that second part, as I mentioned in first paragraph of my rant.
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#12
On the public side:
(31 Mar 15, 06:04AM)ExodusS Wrote: Basic map requirements are here to give the total illusion for some devs that shitty maps are blocked while they are dodging the restrictions instead. It results in a smarter shitty maps' universe and a worse player experience. Since shitty maps are not shitty enough, some people are improving the restriction filter in each AC releases to be sure future versions of the game will release some even more shitty maps than the actual ones, and some people are improving their restriction dodging too, it results in worse played shitty maps each releases, old maps with an even shittiest gameplay because of the added pillars and many closed topics when some interesting arguments are dressed toward devs who want to keep the map resrictions, we used to have Ezjemvill and OldVillage, then with 1.1 restrictions became popular TwinTowers, thanks to the 1.2 for introducing the almighty [email protected]

On the mapping side:
(07 Jun 15, 03:33AM)ExodusS Wrote: The map restrictions is like holding noob mappers under water until they figure out how to map alone, it's clearly disabling their capacity to fail, which is something inconceivable, if you can't learn from your errors, where will you learn from?
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#13
(08 Jun 15, 02:56AM)ExodusS Wrote: On the mapping side:
(07 Jun 15, 03:33AM)ExodusS Wrote: The map restrictions is like holding noob mappers under water until they figure out how to map alone, it's clearly disabling their capacity to fail, which is something inconceivable, if you can't learn from your errors, where will you learn from?

Thanks, ExodusS. Are the devs likely going to implement the system mentioned by Z3R0? Are they seriously talking about it or are they still salty about this topic? So far I haven't heard any reasonable argument for req's.
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#14
(08 Jun 15, 03:51AM)((( Wrote: Thanks, ExodusS. Are the devs likely going to implement the system mentioned by Z3R0? Are they seriously talking about it or are they still salty about this topic? So far I haven't heard any reasonable argument for req's.

I've answered on the thread about map restrictions in the PG several times (i also posted about this matter on several other threads). So yes, i'm seriously talking about it. Yes, i've made suggestions to counter this issue. But nobody seems to understand them, as they keep talking about server tabs and removing restrictions but they don't realize that in the current state of this game, the only thing that might keeps a connection between new players and good players is the only server at the top of the serverbrowser that runs official maps.
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#15
(08 Jun 15, 11:46AM)[email protected] Wrote:
(08 Jun 15, 03:51AM)((( Wrote: Thanks, ExodusS. Are the devs likely going to implement the system mentioned by Z3R0? Are they seriously talking about it or are they still salty about this topic? So far I haven't heard any reasonable argument for req's.

I've answered on the thread about map restrictions in the PG several times (i also posted about this matter on several other threads). So yes, i'm seriously talking about it. Yes, i've made suggestions to counter this issue. But nobody seems to understand them, as they keep talking about server tabs and removing restrictions but they don't realize that in the current state of this game, the only thing that might keeps a connection between new players and good players is the only server at the top of the scoreboard that runs official maps.
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#16
failed quote ?
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#17
(08 Jun 15, 06:28PM)[email protected] Wrote: failed quote ?

Yep, this site doesn't work very well on mobile. Thanks for your quick reply, I'm glad that you're considering it.

(08 Jun 15, 04:01PM)((( Wrote:
(08 Jun 15, 11:46AM)[email protected] Wrote: but they don't realize that in the current state of this game, the only thing that might keeps a connection between new players and good players is the only server at the top of the scoreboard that runs official maps.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this, can you please elaborate? Old/new players don't just play custom/official maps, they play both, so I don't see what the issue is?
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#18
(07 Jun 15, 11:58PM)((( Wrote:
(07 Jun 15, 11:25PM)|HP| Wrote: The old DEV logic/argument was that players were too stupid to distinguish good maps from crap ones and so they needed guidance in the form of hard to understand restrictions. 

I dont want to talk about this because a lot of us tried to reason with devs many years ago.
AC has and always will be about egos and politics.

Yeah that doesn't make much sense...  the restrictions aren't even relevant! Reading the old posts gave me that impression as well, everyone was extremely closed-minded.

(07 Jun 15, 11:25PM)|HP| Wrote: If you compare the current state of ac to the one from the 1.0/1.1 transition fase, obviously not.
The "noob" map and moded server thing should have been cherished and not banished:D


Then ac could have stood the test of time and new tecnhology in gaming. 
The huge player base of the past was a capital that was wasted. 

Hey, but who cares?

Yep, it plays exactly the same from like five years ago.. except now its worse. I wholeheartedly agree with that second part, as I mentioned in first paragraph of my rant.

they Devs allways been narrow minded and don't give much attention? -as HP said.. we have said this many times that maprestriction is bad for the game.. -Do they listen?.. -NO
And why do u think people quit the game?.. .. -The attitude towards the players? -The bad community and the maprestriction :D.. -This is a FACT! -But hey! .. thiis the verdict we see here now.. -almost no playery, no desent community.. and bad attitude?..  -Those few.. close that voted for this .. willl see the results now.. -PERIOD

And they problably won't understand it now either?.. -But let em' live in this fantasy world :D
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#19
Humm..
Maybe if...
When you create a map you must choose whether to use the restriction system to create maps.
If you create a map without restrictions it should be marked with a "flag" indicating this.
So there must be servers running maps with restraint and other servers running maps without restriction. This should be clear in the server list.
Each player chooses the type of map that he will create.
Each player chooses what he wants to play in a clear and objective way.
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#20
LOL @ poll results.

The same poll, 4+ years ago: http://forum.cubers.net/thread-3258.html
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