AC 1.3 or AC 2, Your Expectations and Estimations

[stef]

you can change engines (using sauer, tesseract, source, doesn't matter) and still keep the core gameplay of AC, it just needs to be implemented correctly. the core gameplay of cube was kept when sauer was created out of cube.

You obviously never played cube. Also, I'd still like to hear an example of a good sauer ctf map.

believe it or not, there are things that can be taken from other games and applied to AC to make it better.

There already is an AC fork, that merges everything from everywhere (the resulting discocube very much illustrates my point). Too bad, it's run by a juvenile asshole, who prefers to violate copyrights, so that he can pass his fork as an original game... (however: OT here)

AC has always introduced new stuff - no matter, if it was original or "borrowed". It only matters, if it fits the game. And no, a "pause" button does not fit the game...

i dislike the idea of the developers being able to blacklist maps that they don't like.

Which is why it should be discussed. However: "no map moderation" brought us here...

[Alien]

stef Wrote:
Ok, here's something to discuss: I'd like to completely remove (builtin automatic) map restrictions - because they don't work properly, and they seem to suggest, that any map that passes them is a "good map". Instead, I'd like to implement tools to manage maps on the masterserver list manually, for example with central black- and whitelists for maps. Discuss.

"DES clan whitelist" or "Akimbo whitelist" was the purpose all of "map restriction stuff", it was politic from the beginning, you just continue in the direction ... so in killing the game, pls DO IT, you need to realize it :P Your \autogetmap isnt the reason :P

[Nightmare]

And no, a "pause" button does not fit the game...

Over half of my inters/intras/clan matches involve someone lagging out and disappearing for a few minutes or more. A /pause feature let's us wait for the lagger to return without screwing over the game. It pauses the timer of course, not a literal 'freeze everyone' pause like normal games.

Currently it's 'okay we lost 3 minutes, gogogo' or 'even though we played 9 minutes, let's start over!!1111'.

A pause feature for mastermode 2 would be very convenient.

[Undead]

You obviously never played cube. Also, I'd still like to hear an example of a good sauer ctf map.

well, actually, i've played a decent amount of both cube and sauer. sauer is a completely different game to AC. i don't understand what you're trying to say. there are plenty of good maps in sauer that fit sauer's gameplay, even though i think that sauer's gameplay is terrible. lets say we were to implement AC in the cube2 engine (not that i would recommend doing that, as it wouldn't be a massive improvement over AC). it wouldn't be hard to code the game in such a way that it maintains the same movement, map size, etc. as in AC.

There already is an AC fork, that merges everything from everywhere (the resulting discocube very much illustrates my point). Too bad, it's run by a juvenile asshole, who prefers to violate copyrights, so that he can pass his fork as an original game... (however: OT here)

that AC fork seeks to create an AC that isn't AC; it isn't maintaining the core gameplay that makes AC what it is. you're providing a very poor example.

off-topic: as far as i can tell, that fork isn't violating any copyrights in particular. correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't AC (and its media) come under fair use, provided it isn't used for profit? he isn't harming you in a legal sense. i'd like it if someone more knowledgeable can tell me exactly how he is breaking the law. even if it is off topic it is interesting.

And no, a "pause" button does not fit the game...

i'm going to leave this here for emphasis. yes, people of AC, your eyes are not deceiving you, stef actually said that.

a new AC, making use of a new engine, that maintains AC's "core gameplay, would be the best thing for AC. this increases popularity and retains its current player-base. lets face it; the vast, vast, vast majority of people have access to computers that can run games far better than AC.
however; this requires both work and economic capital, of which the latter needs to be acquired by alternate means. i'm not going to get into a discussion surrounding that.

i think your main gripe is with AC losing its originality in creating a new AC; this isn't a problem if you know what you're doing. personally, i don't believe the developers have either the capability, the knowledge, or the vision, to do that, so i would be wary of them undertaking any project related to a new AC without heavily consulting with the people that know the game better than anyone.

as such, i would prefer to make small recommendations to begin to move AC in a better direction. it is probably that you haven't read my recommendations; considering in our last "discussion" you just completely ignored everything i said and then made generalized statements. seriously tho, read my solution to the map restrictions problem. it is rather similar to your solution but more elegant and refined in its application.

[stef]

Alien, the current map restrictions are ridiculously easy to circumvent, so the current state of the game is the one _without map restrictions_. Would you say, that this was good for the game? Would you really say, sitting in a hidden corner of camper for an hour while spawnkilling noobs, can be called "playing AC"?
I'd say, we've tried "no restrictions" long enough...

Nightmare, mastermode 2 has everything you need to keep playing without interruptions. If a team has players with crappy connections (and wants to use them anyway), it can provide a sufficient number of replacement players. The server will activate the spares as needed. If you think, a "pause" button would end any problems, you are wrong. Why would five players have to wait, just because one has to answer his phone? Or where would you draw the line, what kind of interruptions would warrant a pause?

Undead, simply read the AC license files. Don't listen to what other people think they are - read them yourself. They are not hard to understand.
Also: the fact, that there are no good sauer ctf maps, is very important. It is the true 3D map geometry and the lack of restrictions of sauer (compared to cube1) that kills the gameplay. Allow sauer-style mapping in AC and the game is done. If you don't believe me: play a few team-based games in sauer (preferrably ctf).
Technically, the newer engines are far superior. The resulting maps, however, are crap - gameplay-wise.

[Undead]

Nightmare, mastermode 2 has everything you need to keep playing without interruptions. If a team has players with crappy connections (and wants to use them anyway), it can provide a sufficient number of replacement players. The server will activate the spares as needed. If you think, a "pause" button would end any problems, you are wrong. Why would five players have to wait, just because one has to answer his phone? Or where would you draw the line, what kind of interruptions would warrant a pause?

in case you're serious; it is rarely a "crappy connection" that causes people to disconnect. usually, real life matters need to be attended to, or they have computer problems, or something similar. there isn't always substitutes available. as such, it is much more practical to simply "pause" the game until that person resolves their issue. you're in the extreme minority of people that don't want a pause feature. literally every single other multiplayer game worthy of note has a pause feature of some kind for the exact purposes i just described.

i can't help but feel that you're incredibly distanced from the actual game of AC. you're not recognising the problems that we, the players, actually experience.

Also: the fact, that there are no good sauer ctf maps, is very important. It is the true 3D map geometry and the lack of restrictions of sauer (compared to cube1) that kills the gameplay. Allow sauer-style mapping in AC and the game is done. If you don't believe me: play a few team-based games in sauer (preferrably ctf).
Technically, the newer engines are far superior. The resulting maps, however, are crap - gameplay-wise.

can someone please tell me how this is a coherent argument, or even addresses anything i said? i am way too tired to try to dissect the ridiculousness of it, when i would probably just be repeating myself.

[stef]

Undead, I edited out your assumptions about AC copyright. You are wrong (which is why I don't want it around here - others might believe you). And it is OT here. Feel free to contact me on IRC. Or call me adolf for censoring you. idc.

[Marti]

Reissen is a good sauer ctf map


Tschuss

[Vanquish]

name /one/ good ctf map in sauer...

forge

I know you only asked for one, but reissen/redemption/forgotten/damnation are also great. I picked forge out of them all because I believe it plays better than most AC maps (it's also symmetrical so it's completely balanced, but the many layers of the map counter the boringness and predictability of the map's symmetry).

I'm interested to hear about your high level background in sauerbraten (here's mine, in case you're interested) on which you formulate your opinions about what makes a "good" ctf map. I hope you're not just talking about the fact that Sauer has 197 maps in the official release and yet only 20% of them are played at all, let alone the even smaller percentage of them that are played competitively. The 20% in question still could have good gameplay, and let's be honest, there are some awful maps in AC's official package that nobody plays. That doesn't mean every map in AC sucks.

AC on the cube 2 engine would need some tweaking for sure, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work. I get that devs have jobs and other commitments, as one would expect, but in my opinion a dev should have some more ambition for the game he is working on. As Undead said, I think yours is lacking a bit.

[Nightmare]

What do Sauer CTF maps even have to do with AC2? They're designed for Sauer's gameplay.
If AC2 ever existed, mappers would make all new maps built around AC gameplay. Probably very similar to the normal AC maps, just with the ability for some larger, more open areas, and higher areas and such.

[ExodusS]

It's funny how this thread went from many people's expectations to the mapping restrictions and a very few other, recurrent points once again. But I just hope, once again a moderator will not just come and lock the topic because to his eyes, it's offtopic or it has been discussed enough.

[Cemer]

a pause command would be greatly appreciated; people may not like it and unpause, but it can really salvage a game instead of having to remake because of someone not being able to play

stef, not to be rude as i do appreciate what you are trying to say, but you should stop using your opinions on design to justify why we should/shouldnt go in a certain direction. if people can think of good sauer maps as their own opinion; you are entitled to disagree with them, but i think you should rephrase your statements better or elaborate on aspects you do not like; a game is designed around itself; not many sane individuals compare apples to oranges on which is the better apple

[Iguana]

Heres an idea, bring back ac 1.0.2 and update the map version to accept the new maps and release it as the new ac, problem solved.

[stef]

Has anyone here ever tried to use hot spares in match mode? If "yes", would you care to explain to the rest, how that works?

[Marti]

Completely ignore the sauer ctf map thing, sure np

[stef]

Except from damnation, all those are synthetic 100% symmetric maps that favour camping over actually playing. Most of them are fine regen capture maps, though. Most played in pubs are also capture(_night), berlin_wall, flagstone, face-capture etc.

[Vanquish]

Except from damnation, all those are synthetic 100% symmetric maps that favour camping over actually playing. Most of them are fine regen capture maps, though.

sorry what? am i reading this correctly

- you're wrong, damnation is symmetrical (feel free to go and inspect it and then come back to me)
- you're wrong #2, forgotten isn't symmetrical (feel free to go and inspect it and then come back to me)
- nobody ever plays any of those maps in regen capture. i've seen forge on the maprot for an ogros server in regen once but that's the only exception and that doesn't mean it's a commonly played mode at all [EDIT: except your "exception", damnation, which is usually only played in public regen games + 4v4 ctf]
- also camping never works in any game mode, except in insta ctf if you're trying to hold a lead. it's actually incredibly detrimental in ectf (the mode most people play in mixed games/cw's/tournaments) and even moreso in regular ctf, where pickup/map control is pretty much the basis of the entire mode

This leads me to my point: what experience are you basing this on? you're only correct about common pub maps that are being played, which leads me to believe that pubs are all you've played in sauer.
In public games, only one or two modes (ictf + sometimes regen cap) are played and only a select few maps (the ones you named + some others such as forge/arbana/wdcd/campo) are played. Additionally, I can probably name about four high level sauer players out of the 30-odd floating around the game that play pubs frequently. So naturally I would question your understanding of sauer and the legitimacy of the comparisons you're trying to make, given that limiting yourself to pubs only means that you're missing out on so much of the game.

[Marti]

Forgotten isnt symmetric?

[stef]

Vanquish, I'm not complaining about sauer (I only play pubs from time to time anyway) - I'm complaining about the map quality especially for ctf and similar modes. The additional freedom of the cube2-engine leads to worse maps (gameplay-wise). Many sauer maps are true works of art, from a technical or visual point of view - however, the restrictions of cube1 lead to maps with better gameplay.
The point is: AC as a game has nothing to gain from an engine change. It would be a lot of work, just to gain a little eye-candy. I actually made the test: I updated the cube1 import filter in sauer, so it could read current AC maps - to compare the performance of both engines on exactly the same map. I wanted to see, if we could gain something from a change. The result was: sauer reaches a little less fps than AC.
I don't care the least about eye-candy - and at least all those AC players who use gamma 200, texreduce and brightskins do neither.
In conclusion: the whole discussion about "better" engines is bogus, unless someone can show that AC could actually gain something relevant. Also, as long as no one volunteers to do the work...
How about we move the discussion back to a topic, that actually matters for the current state and near future of AC?

[Marti]

OT:

for the love of god create /pause

[Cemer]

okay; stef looks like he isnt getting what vanq/undead are saying. lets just move on friends

i dont understand why you shouldnt add a pause function at all; its a very small feature that will be used appreciatively in clan matchs and inters alike; just put it on mastermode 2 and presto everyone is happy

i cant fathom how you could argue against it other than a lack of effort, desire or people to code it, or you really hate outside influence on your video games (which may explain some things)

[stef]

Go ahead: how is it supposed to work? Automatically on disconnect? Everyone can pause the game at any time? Is it decided by vote?

Also: if it is already common to just drop out of the game when you get a text or your mom calls - should we then just assume any game to last about an hour, because after unarmed(1) came back from the loo, unarmed(2) remembered that he had to walk the dog and when he came back unarmed(3) decided, it was time to reinstall the game?

IMHO, it is quite rude, if you expect five other players to pause the game just because your gf sent you a text...

PS: Cemer, cut out the ad hominem attacks.

[Cemer]

you could do it a multitude of ways

have a pause button; each member on a team can pause once. anyone else in the game can unpause at any time. this gives time for people to explain why they are pausing and gives the other parties the choice of whether to honour the pause for their own reasons

the team can choose to play without their teammate(s) or pause and wait for them

this should only be in mastermode 2 as people have seemingly agreed they are in the match for the long run, and to prevent pause abusing in public matches

this works quite well in dota2

there are also other options; a /pause [reason] command that pauses the game and states a reason, then an unpause command when the teams are ready

you could also have a /pause and it adds to a vote counter; when the pause votes are over 50%, the game pauses. the game will unpause when it gets to that. the pause vote would last 10 seconds and be able to be recalled after a minimum of a 10 second pause with the same vote counter with an unpause command

there are even plenty of other options possible; but we need the chance to discuss which would be better for ac

ps: as soon as you stop making this ad nauseam and entertain opposing views with more than (no i dont like it and im right)

[RKTnoob]

I would volunteer to remake AC maps in the sauer engine if needed.

[EndGame]

Also, as long as no one volunteers to do the work...

Would the dev team accept the help?

[C4rma]

Also: if it is already common to just drop out of the game when you get a text or your mom calls - should we then just assume any game to last about an hour, because after unarmed(1) came back from the loo, unarmed(2) remembered that he had to walk the dog and when he came back unarmed(3) decided, it was time to reinstall the game?

IMHO, it is quite rude, if you expect five other players to pause the game just because your gf sent you a text...

..................................................................................................

[Marti]

you really don't care about the competitive scene do you?

since you play sauer, take a look there, they have a pause function, you can pause a game there aswell. no one is complaining there.

[Waffles]

Pause baby pause.

Automatic vote in mastermode 2 with 50% on disconnect. Also a player can call a vote for whatever reason. If the vote is f2ed, then it is what it is. Most players are polite enough to entertain a certain amount of time to pause.

I don't see how this doesnt fit with ac gameplay. I've sat in servers many times for 3-5 minutes doing fuck all and I know many others have as well.

I can't think of a single competitive player who feels pause would be a bad thing (if there is my apologies). It'd save a lot of headache with people "not reading" and gaining position or if you're 1 flag down with 5 to go and have to wait 3 minutes for a dude.

Is it shitty you're waiting on that person? Absolutely. Does it happen? Yes, to everyone at some point and you may as well be prepared for it rather than have to waste match-minutes on it when the other solution is wasting both real and match-minutes.

[Cemer]

i know tktf is rarely ever played but when dyh ran it exclusively for a month or two i remember how god awful it was to explain you have to drop the damn flag or tk the flagholder if someone needs to "pause"

does anyone else remember how bad it was playing tktf and/or pausing in that gamemode

[Oracle]

^Vanquish and I, TKTF urban :D