Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
This is really annoying me so I'm gonna rant. I think there's too much shuffling going on and it's really ruining games. Far more than 'camping' and 'spamming' in my view, maybe not quite as much as hacking but there you go.
The time to shuffle is at the beginning, or at the end of a game. Not after 4 minutes, then again after 7 and again after 8 and again after 11 minutes. It is pointless and just ruins a game. It ruins any kind of team spirit/strategy you may have built up with your comrades. It takes away the long term aim eg. you're three flags down and you have 5 minutes to go. Now you have a challenge on your hands and the excitement of the game is seeing whether you can pull it back in time. And yes, teams do pull back even longer odds to come back and win and it makes for one hell of a game. Which is why we play AC right?
It confuses the hell out of people (it does out of me) and makes you start tk-ing your new teammates too. It's completely demoralising to be red, then blue and then red again before the end. It takes away the objective you had at the start of the game.
This is a team game and fairness is not the same as equality. The scores do not have to be even constantly in order for the game to be fair. We have 5 players, you have 5 players. There you go, that's a fair game! Whatever happens next is up to the 10 people playing. And if you're losing, peeps, it's because you're not good enough. Too bad, just play better!! It's not because 'teams are unfair'.
If you think you really do need a shuffle then do it at the end, or the beginning of the next round. In fact, in the next release I would love to see an automatic vote, during the intermission, for a team shuffle. Outside of that you can take away the option IMO. [/rant]
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
Perhaps not intermissions (would mess up scoreboard screenshots) but I otherwise agree with your points.
Additionally, it helps to shuffle when teams have become horribly stacked and the game is no fun for anyone.
But yes -- Shuffling should be taken care of at the fringes of each game. I think the very beginning is fine, since people are downloading demos and exhaling from the previous game anyway.
Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
Well, the point you make makes me want to raise another issue. Intermissions are not long enough! There is not enough time to 'download demos and exhale' or take in the scores even before the next round starts. I am not suggesting impinging on the scoreboard, but after everyone's had a good look at it, then present a new screen for a shuffle vote.
Posts: 2,841
Threads: 44
Joined: Jun 2010
03 Aug 10, 10:32PM
(This post was last modified: 03 Aug 10, 10:33PM by #M|A#Wolf.)
I prefer to force someone instead of shuffling since shuffling isn't always helpful. If CLA is beating RVSF by 5 flags then I find someone in CLA that has a good amount of flags so that if I force him the flags will be either tied or at a difference of 1.
What I hate specially about the whiners about the teams being unfair, is when lets say CLA has 8 flags and RVSF has 3, though RVSF has 180 frags and CLA has 110, though still 3 noobs in RVSF are spamming the console begging the players to shuffle. The solution here is simple, if RVSF would stop being a bunch of ratio whores and started getting some flags I'm pretty damn sure the game would be tied and 'fair'.
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
03 Aug 10, 10:32PM
(This post was last modified: 03 Aug 10, 10:35PM by V-Man.)
True, I think intermission lengths should be modifiable from server to server. Things like clan matches would especially benefit from intermission being an actual little break.
EDIT: @Wolf: You're right, other players actually using teamwork would fix it. But there's not really a way to enforce it. The forceteam philosophy you mentioned is the basic standby solution for this problem.
Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
03 Aug 10, 10:37PM
(This post was last modified: 03 Aug 10, 10:39PM by uniJ00$.)
(03 Aug 10, 10:32PM)|BC|Wolf Wrote: I prefer to force someone instead of shuffling since shuffling isn't always helpful. If CLA is beating RVSF by 5 flags then I find someone in CLA that has a good amount of flags so that if I force him the flags will be either tied or at a difference of 1.
What I hate specially about the whiners about the teams being unfair, is when lets say CLA has 8 flags and RVSF has 3, though RVSF has 180 frags and CLA has 110, though still 3 noobs in RVSF are spamming the console begging the players to shuffle. The solution here is simple, if RVSF would stop being a bunch of ratio whores and started getting some flags I'm pretty damn sure the game would be tied and 'fair'.
That's a much better solution than shuffling. You're right about the ratio whores. They should be playing TDM instead. But with a score line like 8-3 I would be reluctant to adjust the teams. In essence you're rewarding failure and punishing success. Let us do battle and let the best men win, don't rob them of their victory. That's my motto!
Posts: 3,462
Threads: 72
Joined: Jun 2010
I think that in basic ac play, where most people are, in which people aren't "Playing as a team" or "Playing for the team win", shuffling should be limited to if the total ratio of each team has a 1.0 difference in it. That is when I press f1. People should not shuffle when they want to be on the other team though. Truth be told, when teams are getting shuffled, I dont even look at total flags/frags
Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
Well maybe there needs to be a rule within the system whereby strict conditions must be met in order to initiate a shuffle.
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 250
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2010
(03 Aug 10, 10:20PM)uniJ00$ Wrote: This is really annoying me so I'm gonna rant. I think there's too much shuffling going on and it's really ruining games. Far more than 'camping' and 'spamming' in my view, maybe not quite as much as hacking but there you go.
The time to shuffle is at the beginning, or at the end of a game. Not after 4 minutes, then again after 7 and again after 8 and again after 11 minutes. It is pointless and just ruins a game. It ruins any kind of team spirit/strategy you may have built up with your comrades. It takes away the long term aim eg. you're three flags down and you have 5 minutes to go. Now you have a challenge on your hands and the excitement of the game is seeing whether you can pull it back in time. And yes, teams do pull back even longer odds to come back and win and it makes for one hell of a game. Which is why we play AC right?
It confuses the hell out of people (it does out of me) and makes you start tk-ing your new teammates too. It's completely demoralising to be red, then blue and then red again before the end. It takes away the objective you had at the start of the game.
This is a team game and fairness is not the same as equality. The scores do not have to be even constantly in order for the game to be fair. We have 5 players, you have 5 players. There you go, that's a fair game! Whatever happens next is up to the 10 people playing. And if you're losing, peeps, it's because you're not good enough. Too bad, just play better!! It's not because 'teams are unfair'.
If you think you really do need a shuffle then do it at the end, or the beginning of the next round. In fact, in the next release I would love to see an automatic vote, during the intermission, for a team shuffle. Outside of that you can take away the option IMO. [/rant]
yep thats why I'm always pissed of when someone is constantly shuffling or shouting "its not fair, its not fair" all the time. Pah, stealing the points of the other team with this method is also unfair (same goes to using forceteam nowadays). I have had the something similiar in mind also btw (auto team shuffle after game intermission).
Posts: 354
Threads: 19
Joined: Jun 2010
I see this problem too. We will have to find a better solution it seems. Keep your ideas coming.
Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
Well in my ideal world, I would introduce an automated shuffle vote during the intermission, after scoreboard presentation, or in fact the vote could be done concurrently with the scoreboard screen. It just has to say at the bottom "Shuffle teams? Yes or No?" and the screen would stay up 20 seconds, not 5 or whatever it is now. Gives people chance to a) see scores b) congratulate/insult each other - discuss the game even (?) c) vote on a shuffle.
Then, I would limit in-game shuffles a) by a set of conditions and b) quantity. The shuffle option would essentially be "greyed out" unless one team were winning by say 10 flags AND had a greater frag score than the opponents (unlikely that they wouldn't but you never know). In number I would suggest 1 shuffle in game, maximum.
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
I'd also like to open discussion about the method by which the shuffle is determined. To have it purely random will surely lead to some disappointments; certain things make a shuffle good and certain things make it bad. I believe most of those things can be described in terms of mathematics.
Posts: 534
Threads: 21
Joined: Jun 2010
stef designed the algorithm for the shuffle, you will have to ask him.
IMO the shuffle should not be disabled. Sometimes, partway through a game, it is needed. When one team has nothing but noobs with a 0.4 ratio, and the other team is nothing but vets with a 2.0 ratio, there's no way around it: The teams need to be shuffled. Although I agree that using a forceteam is generally a better idea, there are (rare) circumstances where a shuffle is needed.
Posts: 269
Threads: 11
Joined: Jun 2010
Why do we shuffle? To fair out the teams. If you really want to leave it till the intermission, I see no reason to have a shuffle option at all. RIght. Let's play a whole game with all hte n00bs vs. the pros and have everyone quit.
Nice idea.
Posts: 354
Threads: 1
Joined: Jun 2010
(04 Aug 10, 01:35PM)Lightning Wrote: Why do we shuffle? To fair out the teams. If you really want to leave it till the intermission, I see no reason to have a shuffle option at all. RIght. Let's play a whole game with all hte n00bs vs. the pros and have everyone quit.
Nice idea. All these points have already been covered.
1)Shuffling is acceptable and useful in "hte n00bs vs. the pros" scenarios
2)In all other circumstances, you should FORCETEAM, not SHUFFLE.
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
04 Aug 10, 02:38PM
(This post was last modified: 04 Aug 10, 02:39PM by V-Man.)
And, for some reason, around 75% of shuffles do not improve "hte n00bs vs. the pros" situations.
Posts: 43
Threads: 7
Joined: Jul 2010
04 Aug 10, 09:46PM
(This post was last modified: 04 Aug 10, 09:49PM by uniJ00$.)
The likelihood of getting a game with "all the noobs vs all the pros" is remarkably slim. Far more often you get a mix of one or the other (by whatever definitions you use for noob and pro). There is another factor involved too - team chemistry. Why would one team of "pros" perform worse or better in different combinations? I think it's because everyone has a different style of playing, sometimes complimenting, sometimes conflicting. Some people are snipers, some people are nade freaks and some are great at getting flags. Some players are awesome on one map and terrible on the next one. If you get three amazing snipers on a team that never get flags (lots out there) of course they are going to lose (at CTF). The solution is not to shuffle teams, but for these players to adapt their game (or accept graciously that they are going to lose). Personally I love it when my team is losing cos I relish the challenge of coming back. Then I get shuffled and find myself at the bottom of the winning team, and then shuffled again and find myself half way up the losing team and then I can't be bothered and look for another server. The bottom line is of course, there has to be one winner and one loser. That's just the way it is. Fulham don't say to Chelsea at half time, look it's not fair, give us Drogba and Terry. Games do not have to be constantly rigged to create a tie.
Posts: 3,780
Threads: 33
Joined: Jun 2010
Quote:Games do not have to be constantly rigged to create a tie.
+1
Posts: 250
Threads: 8
Joined: Jun 2010
I have played several FPS. AC is the only one game in which the gamers are complaining all the time about nearly everything and of course they are more interested in shuffling rather in to accept the challenge to catch up and beat the enemy team.
I would like to see:
- permanent serversided autobalancing in public matches (autoteam on)
- auto-shuffle after game intermission in public matches (then it's fair to everyone, and TKs are prbly reduced)
- forceteam only for the upcoming match mode, to setup the teams
everything else would become a personal destiny, karma, kismet w/e...in short words: something you have to (learn to) deal with.
(but this won't happen, cause the ppl are so focused on having all options to vote, regardless how stupid they are)
|
