Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Luc@s]

I'm not starting a flame war here, I'm just stating the obvious.
50% of AC play only douze and tower maps. 40% play the game once. 10% play matches. That makes 60% happy. Start map restrictions, as you said, delete about 82% of the active players. Gg. Don't question the statistics, I've done enough research

oh no don't do maths again

[SiL3nT]

1. cuz of map restrictions, duh.

2. try to beat MyS with sniper, just saying.

3. lol

4. no

[Mai Mee Tur]

"1. cuz of map restrictions, duh."

You got your stats from map restrictions? And if the map restrictions ARE ALREADY THERE why delete 82%

No, you're skimping around the issue, especially since a few MyS players themselves snipe, as well as, not to bring up bad blood, they've been losing to BoB quite a bit lately. And I do believe that BoB has a few snipers.

3. Lol, actually, if we went by your logic, since I've been playing longer then you have, doesn't that make my opinion worth more in its weight?

4. Yup, if you're speaking of weapons, then I believe it's just called tactics, as you can't really be "creative" with a weapon.

[SiL3nT]

1. Map restrictions are increasing, that's the point. Forget this point.

2. Let's not go into individual players, but I believe they were AR. But forget this point.

3. True. Forget it.

4. Watch a demo of lordzz with sniper and AR, see what i mean with creativeness, and come back ;) but seriously, are you playing this game or it's graphics? If yes...:/

[Mai Mee Tur]

4. Why would I watch a demo? When you say "creativeness" with a weapon, I think tactics, skill, and methods. Not much else to it.

And sure I'm playing this game, but where does graphics come in

[Nightmare]

Shotgun getting weakened because of overcrowded pubs = rage
:)

yay for being back on topic.

[V-Man]

All I can see from your posts are "wah, everything about AC sucks right now ;_;"
Then, before I can even comprehend what the problem actually is, you propose a single solution that is too vague to implement.
Let's discuss the weapon balance instead of making walls of lamentation:
1) What is the specific issue here? (i.e., what is wrong with the game, as opposed to what people in the game choose to do, or your raging emotions)?
2) What do you think should be done about it, specifically (i.e., what specific things will remedy the problem, as opposed to "general principles that philosophically balance out the karma")?

[OpenSource]

"Boho, my sniper is messed up, cant hit shit."

So??
Just you adapt as the rest has had to do...

Stop crying about sniper being so week and try to come up with ideas how to balance ALL weapons.

[SiL3nT]

Opensource please don't answer if you can't comprehend.

V-Man you are taking the discussion back to where it was, skipping a vital step; what is wrong? Thing is, nothing is wrong with the people. The thing that is wrong is that in matches, which, with their style, make Ac unique, only AR and smg are used, giving the game a global gamestyle which everyone uses; there is no creativeness. Make the sniper 1+1 if no armour; such a simple fix. Strictly, one class of weapons is being used.

Don't go back into the 'I use sniper' and 'think about the pubs', they can, as seen, adapt recessively.

[V-Man]

nothing is wrong with the people.

and

...in matches, ... only AR and smg are used

Contradict.

However,

Make the sniper 1+1 if no armour; such a simple fix. Strictly, one class of weapons is being used.

This is something I agree with, appreciate, and like. This is a good idea.

[Mai Mee Tur]

The only thing I possibly agree with is the sniper idea.

But then you say there is no creativeness with the AR and SMG in matches.

You fail to back that up, and when you try, you list a top tier clan, or you only mention the people who do use these weapons, failing to look at the whole side of the story.

You believe there's no "creativeness," maybe you should try looking a bit harder, I myself like to think I'm somewhat "creative" (i.e. use of tactics and skill) with the SMG/AR, and especially when I snipe.

Also, a possible reason, this just may be... possible... reason that the AR and SMG are used more often is that most maps are favorable towards said weapons.

[Harps]

Personally I think that the weapon balance should go back to the 0.93 settings, with a few minor changes and additions.

assuming we start from 0.93 again

Additions:
Carbine is now added, seems to work fine as it is atm.
We now have helmets and kevlar, seems to work pretty well

Changes to 0.93:
Up the AR clip to 20 bullets
lower the smg damage to 8 dmg per bullet
Remove sniper/pistol switch bug (this has been done)
make shotgun have a fixed spread pattern
bring back sticky nades again, sticking a nade on the enemy head model was so fun when you timed it right

[SiL3nT]

Mai: ffs. idk who u are and I don't want to insult u. but u just account parts of what I say. The reason of this game is fun, and fun, with most, is winning. Therefore, EXEMPLARILY, i chose MyS as a clan which wins a lot. I didn't say creativeness isn't being used. I said that there was no place for it with only one class of weapons in use. You maybe use your own tactics, sorry, but u suck with them. Use the tactics of MyS and BoB to be able to win. By this I don't mean small parts of tactical ideologies, I mean the main ideas which structure the movement and behaviour of players.

V-Man: Thank you for understanding my point. We can now continue to the next step of implementing changes.

Harps: You are, as the hundreds of posts before you, missing out the part this thread is trying to solve; namely, what is wrong with the game at current. Once you get the answers to those questions, you can continue to the step of improving. This is why I said that the game shouldn't be accustomed to the new players, as they don't know what is wrong with it.

[tempest]

You'll have to figure out a few things:
1) You don't necessarily have to win in order to have fun. Well, maybe you do...
2) Like it or not, AC isn't just being played by clans. In fact, they're quite marginal compared to the total amount of players.
3) Given that, I can't see why clan players and "highly experienced" players should be the only ones to have a say here. The game isn't being made exclusively for you.

[Mai Mee Tur]

I don't know who you are either, Silent, as far as I'm concerned, you come in here thinking you've got the best ideas for how to make the game better, which is basically "sniper for president."

Ffs, I don't need to win to have fun, I'm fine at the level I'm at, nor do I feel the need to change tactics to beat a clan, if my clan mates want to do that fine, but that's not my speed.

I also account only parts of what you say because the parts I account for are the only bits worth it, the rest is just jumble.

Also, the sniper + Pistol combo is back next version anyways, so you can stop your crying about it :| If you've that much an issue with people using two guns (at least in your eyes) Stop playing, come back next version.

Also, are you trying to find what's wrong with the current game for the betterment of the game? Or are you trying to find what's wrong with the game, for you

[V-Man]

You'll have to figure out a few things:
1) You don't necessarily have to win in order to have fun. Well, maybe you do...

Like any newbie, I manage to have fun because of being able to play the game, not necessarily because of winning.
Now then... Winning is important, and gives a bit more motivation to play when I'm in an otherwise bad mood. (:-P) How this applies here is that a person should be able to find the weapon that allows them to win the most. I think what SiL3nT is pointing out is that the balance must be off if everyone is finding that the two fully-automatic weapons are their winning tools. If this is the case, we'd have to figure out exactly what numbers pertaining to them need to change in order to bring balance back to the force.

2) Like it or not, AC isn't just being played by clans. In fact, they're quite marginal compared to the total amount of players.

Just out of curiosity, do you happen to have more fun when you play against clanners or non-clanners?

3) Given that, I can't see why clan players and "highly experienced" players should be the only ones to have a say here. The game isn't being made exclusively for you.

One thing I've noticed is that clanners are more likely to have a forum account, giving them a say in things. I wonder how to reach out to non-clanners to invite them to have their say? Though I'd imagine lots (but certainly not most) of them don't care enough about this stuff to actually register.

Personally I think that the weapon balance should go back to the 0.93 settings, with a few minor changes and additions.

Woah! Harps wants .93 settings back?? What a crazy surprise. <3
My favorite thing about AC not being .93 anymore is the nonsensical grenade physics. Sticking in a wall is cool, but the bouncing was really weird and I could never get used to it.

[Cleaner]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Please wake me up whenever we're back on topic.

[SiL3nT]

This is entirely on topic, stop spamming?

All I started with was saying that there is only one sensual (CREATIVE) side to the factor that makes Ac a game like no other; match gameplay, 1 on 1 adrenaline and intensive gameplay. Summarized with one word; creativeness.

What brought me here were a few demos from the past versions. I started missing the old game I loved, a part of me didn't seem to be there. I knew someone was working on it, I wanted to help, I checked this thread and cooled down in vein. I couldn't believe what was being talked about. You were trying to improve something which wasn't unique to Ac, something that a billion of other games have, something which wouldn't take Ac a step further. The core element for Ac, it's existence and it's increasing popularity, is creativeness; which was deprecated in
the current version, making those that have played this game for a long time (AND HENCE THE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS) notice an unsatisfactory change, a change which headed the game to a completely different direction, a change that, simultaneously improved the game, but denied its blueprint factor.

V-Man is understanding what I'm getting at, I'm trying to stress the importance of filling in thr hole and opening, once and for all, the game for creativeness. Stop pickIng up minor faults in my posts, get the major idea and evolve it.

Last time I checked, the sniper doesn't kill 1 shot 1 pistol. This is a simple way of adding a class into the game. And, ffs, I'm not saying that the sniper suc or is nurfed, I'm saying that it can't be used in the way we liked.

tempest: your second point: ok?! Third: I hope I've answered. First: stop finding minor faults?

[CharlyMurphie]

Im staying SiL3nT. Pun fully intended.

[paulmuaddibKA]

I want to address Sil3nts concern on creativeness. I feel the same way on regards of a different issue, but the Topic is the same:

All I started with was saying that there is only one sensual (CREATIVE) side to the factor that makes Ac a game like no other; match gameplay, 1 on 1 adrenaline and intense gameplay. Summarized with one word; creativeness.

Exchange the underlined words with "gemas". See a connection?
I truly understand you Sil3nt. I know how you feel...
You have the right to express yourself and fight for what you think is an honorable cause.
I have an honorable cause myself, and Im gonna fight for it.
GEMA WARS coming soon...

[#M|A#Wolf]

Honestly, I don't see what's the meaning of this "creativeness" problem, lol. Just fix the sniper, shotgun, reduce the AR's power, and it's cool.

[Orynge]

Shotgun is the only thing that needs fixing in the SVN. ._.

[|FOX|Exia]

Honestly, I don't see what's the meaning of this "creativeness" problem, lol. Just fix the sniper, shotgun, reduce the AR's power, and it's cool.

F1

[Harps]

This is a discussion from IRC yesterday about how the akimbo creates an imbalance.

http://pastebin.com/Jmm8FzJc

thoughts?

[paulmuaddibKA]

Well, so many many times I dont pick it up cause its sound, for example, in depot, but... what about PF matches? Those are fun with its current respawn!

[Harps]

true, maybe leave it how it is in pistol frenzy?

also, i didnt mean to say 'your goal shouldnt be to pick up akimbo', because it should be a goal, as it is there in the map and it is quite an advatange, however my main point it respawns too quickly in certain modes.

[Nightmare]

Akimbo is supposed to be a 'power-up' and all it is, is an smg with 6-hit instead of 7-hit kill.
So not OP. <3

I rarely use it because it gives your position away when you grab it, and when it 'magically' disappears. Plus it's hitreg is really ugly for me. most of the shots get dropped. <3 hooray

[Harps]

It is a power up, and that's good, as it opens up the 'control dynamic' part of the game, for players and maps.

Plus it's hitreg is really ugly for me. most of the shots get dropped. <3 hooray

What are you talking about? The hitscan weapon has less recoil than the others (which is good and makes it really fun to use), therefore it should be easier for you to aim.

[#M|A#Wolf]

It is a power up, and that's good, as it opens up the 'control dynamic' part of the game, for players and maps.

Plus it's hitreg is really ugly for me. most of the shots get dropped. <3 hooray

What are you talking about? The hitscan weapon has less recoil than the others (which is good and makes it really fun to use), therefore it should be easier for you to aim.

Nightmare wasn't saying anything about aim, he was saying that the bullets were "dropped", meaning that not all registered even if it's point blank.

[Felix-The-Ghost]

The only thing about akimbo notable in my opinion is the akimbo "powerup" sound -- it seems like the game should have originally made this sound play only on the local machine, and have other players hear the generic "pickup" sound (the sound for ammo/clip pickups).

That way you could not differentiate between the unique akimbo sound of other players and other pickups.