Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[Bukz]

The SMG is better at close range, the AR is better at long range, which is sensible. Do not insult people because of their opinions. ;)

[Mai Mee Tur]

:| If you're trying to go up against AR long range with an SMG then...

[V-Man]

...then you'll lose if I'm behind the SMG.

[Stranz]

question, how do we measure balance with biased opinion from some people.

[#M|A#Wolf]

With devs that never play, that's how ;)

Whether it sounds sarcastic/trollish/etc it actually makes sense. A dev that barely plays the game wouldn't have a favorite weapon in his mind, therefore making his opinions un-biased. Only problem is that "that" certain dev wouldn't know the current situation regarding balance, so we're going to need some mature people (veterans) that know AC from its competitive side (I actually mean the competitive side, not just hardcore pub/inter players) and that are willing to instead of give opinions, give facts.

[tempest]

If there is any way of achieving "perfect" balance, it would be statistical analysis. But even then, I doubt people would stop complaining.

[Xenon]

Elite, smg is perfectly fine in this version, you just got to aim. Or take the closer route, I use it all the time on short routes and it works a charm.

[CharlyMurphie]

If there is any way of achieving "perfect" balance, it would be statistical analysis. But even then, I doubt people would stop complaining.

They should just quit and play this instead :)

[Jason]

Huh? who said it isn't? I use smg too and I agree smg is okay at closed ranges.

PD: You can't beat me. Edit: You can't even touch me.

Vermi would eat you up for breakfast Sace-baby :p

On the other hand, the idea of AR being noob gun and SMG being pro's is just dumb. AR has more kickback and more recoil, making is harder as an overall weapon to manage, kickback and recoil can be controlled by the player, hence the higher learning curve.

SMG on the other hand has little recoil/pushback, and just mass spread - hence all the raging SMG fags about their 'undepowered weapon' - it's not really, both guns kill in 480ms, if the enemy is 100/0 and neither misses. No the issue with SMG is the insane spread making almost ineffective to zero at long range. Want to make the game more competitive - reduce spread on the SMG / AR.

[#M|A#Wolf]

Want to make the game more competitive - reduce spread on the SMG / AR.

Exactly. Raise the SMG's range by reducing its spread. Though I don't think it's necessary to touch the AR regarding spread.

[paulmuaddibKA]

I use SMG and I feel I have little to do against a proper AR user. I even bought a PLC to decrease hit loss but it doesnt seem to work in my favor. It´s probably that I´m a big n00b but, hell, I´m not even complaining. It´s just that if the AR user shoots and jumps and goes backward then I´m 100% toast, 90% of the time, XD.

[Elite]

Yeah through this low recoil its easy to aim, but through the lag delays its worse, especially against AR guys. Increase the damage for sure and redcuce the spread.

[Xenon]

Elite, use another weapon and stop complaining about smg. The only reason you like it is more ammo. lol,

[Elite]

I am playing since 4 years, i have played every version of AC also ActionCube, i have enough experience to know what weapon is overpowered or worse, and smg is.

Smg is most affected by the kevlar and helmets.It really need more damage.

Also i dont know why you are still here, you have cheated, so come back in 6 months or in a year.

[Mai Mee Tur]

SMG doesn't need more damage, especially in close range.

The SMG's bullets aren't meant to penetrate armor like the AR's, if we were to speak realistically.

SMG's fine

[Luc@s]

If there is any way of achieving "perfect" balance, it would be statistical analysis. But even then, I doubt people would stop complaining.

this

[Elite]

There are just two solution:

Increase the smg or
decrease the AR

[Mai Mee Tur]

Don't push your weapon just because it's your favorite :|

The SMG owns the AR close range if you aim

[Elite]

owns is definetely the false word, you have a chance to win i would say.

AR is playable all ranges very well, especially mid to long range.

You need 50 % acc shots to win vs a strong AR on close range. This play maybe Horus, Harrek, ech0, tbh only pros and still if you do this you havent won vs kevlared players, he has already fragged you before with AR. To play 7/13 to 9/18 is just possible on close range and just for pros. Maybe 5 % of the whole ac players can do this.

AR is used now by the most middle-good players from 1.0.4 and good playing new comers, and some pros who know that the AR is overpowered and take the advantage of this.

If you would give such AR guys a smg , like they used in 1.0.4, they would get raped more than ever before.

[paulmuaddibKA]

... and some pros who know that the AR is overpowered and take the advantage of this.

I myself have though to train with the AR to gain competitiviness. I know others who hold the same thought, as Elite here. Im in the wagon of either raising SMG or unpower AR.
AR already has three unique features : Recoil, damage and range.
SMG: Little recoil, little damage overall (armor), huge spread, close range instakill?
Sniper: Headshots, pistol/knife combo. 2 shots kill.
Shotgun: Splatter.
Carbine: Carbine sprint, distinguishable sound, XD.

[Nightmare]

@ paul :D
AR/Sniper/Shotgun: Exactly...
SMG: Can easily crush non-full autos(so smg needs no boost at all), and can take an equally skilled AR'er close range. SVN version has a really weird crazy recoil that makes it severely harder to use than the AR. Chews through armored guys slower than AR... more reasons why AR needs at least a 15 round clip.
Carbine: No specialty.(negating armor would be a sexy ability, especially since other weapons can miss and still kill you before your 2nd shot.) Miss and you die. Never miss and you die. lolwut?!

[Sacerockin']

If you would give such AR guys a smg , like they used in 1.0.4, they would get raped more than ever before.

No doubt, right Jason-baby? lmao.

[CharlyMurphie]

Carbine: Carbine sprint, distinguishable sound, XD.

It can give you away or make them run. Just hit em once and see what Im talking about.(im sure u do already) Hit em 2x though, then hit the guy next to him as well, meaning the enemy when you have the flag and it really opens up some decision making; GREAT GUN.
EDIT: It rarely pans out like that :p

[Elite]

I just see AR users saying smg is fine atm, most of them have no experience.
In 1.0.4 noone was complaining about smg or sniper, but they were indeed too strong in compare with AR and shotgun.

You can say what you want, AR is overpowered, it makes most damage and you can win or own on every range.
If you reduce the clip of AR to 15 it makes not really a difference, just on public games. In 2vs2 or 3vs3 you have on every side one guy normally, so you have enough time to reload and with 15 bullets you can still frag very easy one enemy.

Smg needs a bit more damage , anyhting between 16-17 per bullet.With 10 or maximum 11 bullets you should be possible to frag every player.

Also i think the sniper should stay now from the damage, but other states should be like in 1.0.4.

The guys who still use smg in 1.1.0.4 and has a lot of experience with previous versions should suggest what they think to get a really good balance between, and not just this guys who are using AR and want to see their weapon on the top of AC.
The problem is apart from 10-20 strong smgs here, all "good" players are using AR. 90 % of middle-good players, who used smg or sniper in 1.0.4 are using now AR.
Now they think got really "skilled", but the truth is they are using a far stronger weapon now.

[pweaks]

I just see AR users saying smg is fine atm, most of them have no experience.
In 1.0.4 noone was complaining about smg or sniper, but they were indeed too strong in compare with AR and shotgun.

You can say what you want, AR is overpowered, it makes most damage and you can win or own on every range.
If you reduce the clip of AR to 15 it makes not really a difference, just on public games. In 2vs2 or 3vs3 you have on every side one guy normally, so you have enough time to reload and with 15 bullets you can still frag very easy one enemy.

Smg needs a bit more damage , anyhting between 16-17 per bullet.With 10 or maximum 11 bullets you should be possible to frag every player.

Also i think the sniper should stay now from the damage, but other states should be like in 1.0.4.

The guys who still use smg in 1.1.0.4 and has a lot of experience with previous versions should suggest what they think to get a really good balance between, and not just this guys who are using AR and want to see their weapon on the top of AC.
The problem is apart from 10-20 strong smgs here, all "good" players are using AR. 90 % of middle-good players, who used smg or sniper in 1.0.4 are using now AR.
Now they think got really "skilled", but the truth is they are using a far stronger weapon now.

I kinda agree and disagree to this. Even if some players have "improved" because of AR, I can still kill them with the smg pretty easy because their tactical ability is still poor. Pros are pros, they own you with smg or AR, even with sniper like MeLone.

[Nightmare]

and not just this guys who are using AR and want to see their weapon on the top of AC.

1) <3
2) Smg can hold it's own against most snipers/carbines/shotguns. You are right, AR is overpowered. But if you boost the smg, it makes the smg OP against the three slow weapons. So the AR needs to come down to earth. ;) A little less pushback & 15 round magazine would make AR vs SMG a lot more interesting.

[Elite]

I kinda agree and disagree to this. Even if some players have "improved" because of AR, I can still kill them with the smg pretty easy because their tactical ability is still poor. Pros are pros, they own you with smg or AR, even with sniper like MeLone.

Well, you are right you kill this people because of lack in experience. Maybe "pro" isnt the wright word, but the 20 best players of AC, you wont win with a smg vs their AR. Just say it so, a pro with AR will frag you faster than a pro with smg. The smg has only one chance and thats vs unarmored players, with only 1 helmet AR is already in advantage.

@Nightmare

You are maybe wright, this would go to fast frag game, if you are boosting up the smg, but with this new amount of kevlar and helmets, it should be possible to boost up a bit, otherwise you are running against a wall vs this kevlared ARs. Well, reducing the spread of smg would be very nice and the recoil of the current SVN is really shit.

I think its hard to make the AR worse, a clip reduction wouldnt make much difference in clanmatches. Btw was the damage in 1.0.4 the same like now, i mean 24? What are the changes of AR from 1.0.4 to 1.1.0.4 ?
We have to find a middle way comparing this both version.

[Mai Mee Tur]

And what'll you say if the SMG becomes the OP weapon as compared to the AR, or will you be fine with that.

Honestly, sure, the AR could be "brought" down to earth, but SMG up close will beat an AR player 90% of the time anyways,

[Elite]

Who are you guy ? I never see you playing and you are doing like you are an experienced active smg player.

Do you use different nicks ?

[Mai Mee Tur]

I'm an unbiased player is all when it comes to the weapons... except sniper... I'd like sniper to be the OP weapon again...

16 or 17 damage for SMG is too much imo. I'm just saying it's fine as is, maybe make it so armor doesn't affect it as much, but other than that.. meh