Degrading Game Quality

[Xeoncross]

I don't mean taking out every single TyD server and only having one main server. I mean leaving the ones we got right now, but change the name from one of them and make it represent as the main server from the TyD ladder.

Bingo. That would be perfect. Simple change and everyone wins.

[jiba]

I find myself playing ac less these days due to the state current public gameplay. There is a positive to be found in this situation, you could find something else to do other than play games. My time zone isn’t that popular (but that’s my problem) and what active servers there are players are just repeatedly looping through ac_douze (osok, tosok, ctf, tdm, dm).

I don’t think ladders are ever going to be a primary motivation of most (new) players to join servers. And there are a lot of new players. I’m sure if pwnage wrote ac_douze into his servers maprots so that it appeared frequently, his servers would be flooded with all the new players. Ladders are a “nice to have” but not essential in maintaining a healthy game.

How do you encourage new players to play and learn new maps and modes? I remember back in my first days of ac whoever was admin just chose for you and that was that. Looking back I was fortunate to be in servers with admins such as Harps, tipper etc.

I think newish players look for the map and mode first while deciding what server to join. Of course this is an opinion and a generalisation. Other considerations are going on too, who else is online?, how many players? What ping? Does it report to our beloved ac1.1 ladder? etc. etc.

I have just recently read the thread about making more maps official. It is my opinion that even if you were to put more maps into the official package these wouldn’t be played any more than they are now. So I can’t see the value to be gained from adding more maps at this point in time.

I believe the game can be improved and maintained through servers which have regular admin presence, solid and interesting maprots and modes. There are such servers like this right now but there are also many servers which are poor in terms of quality.

A lot of new players like trash maps or like what is so very familiar to them (ac_douze). A bit of trash and something common (ac_douze) now and then is fine, but all the time is quite boring and unhealthy. So how do you encourage new players to expand their playing experience and appreciation? Does anyone have any ideas?

[Fate]

Jiba has a good point there..

Although, my mind goes blank when I try to think for ideas to encourage newbies to play other maps other than ac_douze.

The only idea I can think of is probably quite impractical. It's to remove servers from the masterserver that have a really bad maprot e.g. pushing douze or desert 24/7.

[eftertanke]

I find myself playing ac less these days due to the state current public gameplay. There is a positive to be found in this situation, you could find something else to do other than play games. My time zone isn’t that popular (but that’s my problem) and what active servers there are players are just repeatedly looping through ac_douze (osok, tosok, ctf, tdm, dm).

Yeah. I agree. I'm enjoying CMs more and more because I realize how different the gameplay is.

[Huntsman]

I'm not playing much because there is hardly any good players on and if they are, they're all in random servers

[pwnage{TyD}]

If would help if TyD severs actually said TyD server then people would know to flock to them, hello common sense, why do you think it was so easy for people to get on Hs servers, cuz it actually said Hi-Skill on them.

Have a look below.

I'm pretty sure that if there was a server called "{TyD} Server Ladder" with red and blue colors or something similar like the former HI-SKILL server, it would work as the main TyD server ladder and make more interest for people, just as HI-SKILL was for us.

Because it's so hard to look up the webpage and remember the contributing servers. I mean, you actually have to open a browser and type http://ladder.tearyoudown.com/scoring/ to see which servers that you need to be on.

[Shorty]

May i suggest getting some servers in California, to TyD ladder, as the Servers located there generally had the nicest ping for everyone in the world to play.. and also as Wolf has said, put some Nice bold colours in the name, saying something like - Sends to{TyD} Ladder on the ends of the server names..

[Syntax]

At the moment, all the AC ladder servers are empty.

But that's besides the point. Jiba pretty much summed up all my thoughts. Having a ladder won't necessarily bring a competitive atmosphere, nor will it make the game any better.

I don't play AC to score points on a ladder--even when Hi-Skill was around, I didn't really care much about my ranking. I know some players do, though. But I play AC because it's fun.

Having a ladder isn't what's going to make the game any more fun or better. Having players that genuinely care about gameplay and what they throw out of their mouths is what's going to make a better game.

A lot of new players like trash maps or like what is so very familiar to them (ac_douze). A bit of trash and something common (ac_douze) now and then is fine, but all the time is quite boring and unhealthy. So how do you encourage new players to expand their playing experience and appreciation? Does anyone have any ideas?

I am willing to admit that pub action back when Hi-Skill was around was a lot better--mainly because the ladder was very popular, and it didn't have "crapmaps" in the maprotation. Of course, there was the occasional TwinTowers, Gemas, etc, but they weren't rampant.

I believe the best solution is to offer variety but also consistency. Players will only vote douze because that's all they've played. They can't know what they truly like if they're being "forced" to play douze. Therefore, some servers should disable voting, but have a very good maprotation that offers many different maps (variety), but not too many different modes (consistency).

For example, when Drakas added TKTF on ac_depot, it was received rather negatively. It wasn't consistent with what players (especially newer ones) wanted. Newer players are generally less confident and feel much more comfortable in a familiar map/mode (ctf ac_depot). If we want to end the whole ac_douze craze, it starts with making other maps and modes more familiar with players. No one else can really do this except our beloved server owners.

Remember that by disabling voting, you're not actually forcing anyone to play something--as long as it's not the same map/mode again and again, you're actually giving them a lot of choice.

As for "popularizing" the AC Ladder (I do believe it isn't as popular as it can be), I actually agree with |BC|Wolf's idea. I do understand that you can just go to the website and see what servers you need to play on, but a newer player won't bother to check websites. They just want to find a game--they'll be spending time looking at the server list. When they see all these "@AC LADDER"s, it would catch their attention that there's a bit of a network going on. Then they'll pay more attention to the MOTD and investigate themselves.

I also think that Prime/Shorty's idea of getting "better" servers is valid. Since Hi-Skill shut down, I haven't been able to find ANY servers offering a ping of 250 or lower and with a stable connection (PJ is usually 50+). It makes pubs and inters very, very strange and sometimes difficult to play. The "Sol" servers on Hi-Skill were practically lag free for me. It may be a worthy investment, although nevertheless more expensive to rent.

But really, in the long run, I'm not very interested in ladders. I believe that ladders encourage better admins and bring in better, more competitive players, but it's not going to make a "good game". Why do we say "gg" at the end of a game anyway?

It's because we all know that at the end of the day, time enjoyed is never time wasted.

[Robtics]

But every community member who was here before Drakas introduced his ladder knows, that there was nearly nothing going on ingame while we had no ladder, irc was the only way to meet as you were lucky to find one or two good and known players on the same server.

[Syntax]

But every community member who was here before Drakas introduced his ladder knows, that there was nearly nothing going on ingame while we had no ladder, irc was the only way to meet as you were lucky to find one or two good and known players on the same server.

I recall playing many fun games in 0.93, even being completely oblivious to a ladder.

Do most players actually play AC for the ladder?

[Robtics]

But there was there a ladder? I was referring to the time between the stop of the old TyD ladder and the hi-skill ladder.

Do most players actually play AC for the ladder?

Ofcourse not! But the servers are meeting points ... - this has been said before tho ;)

[Mr.Floppy]

To be honest, I can't really understand the big deal here.

There's a ladder provided by TyD and there are servers with TyD in their name. Seems quite easy to figure this, in my opinion. I sense there's more to it, but just the plain existence of a ladder. But let's leave politics asside...

From my experience it's not that there weren't no skilled players on those servers (TyD), but a lot of them run off instantly, whenever some less popular map comes up.

It seems like a lot of highly skilled players just stick to the maps they are good at and anything beyond that will be ignored. Which surely was encouraged by the limited maprots of HI-SKILL servers.

I'm not saying this kind of maprot was any bad in general. There aren't much official maps balanced well enough to allow for upmost fairness for sure. Though, this was pretty much the opposite of encouraging players to learn about all maps.

However, I didn't like HI-SKILL servers too much. Boring maprots, cocky players and an aggresive mood all over the place.

In the end you, Pandel and others, are asking for a place for the pros to meet and to play real competitive games. Fair enough.

Newbies and occasional players don't care about ladders (just like myself, btw). You could leave this group of players out of your considerations completly and rather think about how to get the competive players together. I doubt any ladder-server would magically make all the pros appear at the same time at the same place...

[Alien]

In Thursday i found |40+| server (at the bottom of list because of custom maprot probably) with only clan players, I faced totally other level of playing. Firstly for a long time i stayed online more than 2 rounds.

Current servers face noobs from crappy maps, you wanted it, so face it.

[Syntax]

But there was there a ladder? I was referring to the time between the stop of the old TyD ladder and the hi-skill ladder.

That was around July-August 2009, and yes, I played some amazing games without a ladder, with very skilled players too. ;)

AC doesn't need a ladder to be fun. It helps for some people--but for players like me, I couldn't bother less if I was playing on a Hi-Skill server or a TyD server. All I want is good pings and ggs!

[CicloN]

There are just 4 people playing in TyD ladder rigth now.

EDIT : 10

[vern]

n00b thread

sry truth hurts

[Bloodsport]

I think Alien makes a very good point about custom map rots forcing servers to the bottom of the list. I like the TyD ladder servers and there are usually good games to be found on them, but after playing AC for a few years, I like a bit of variety in pub matches. It would be really nice if there was a TyD ladder server running a map rot full of the map-pack maps and other high quality customs (not just a few), but that's not going to attract enough players if by default it's sorted to the bottom of the server list.

[pwnage{TyD}]

I think Alien makes a very good point about custom map rots forcing servers to the bottom of the list. I like the TyD ladder servers and there are usually good games to be found on them, but after playing AC for a few years, I like a bit of variety in pub matches. It would be really nice if there was a TyD ladder server running a map rot full of the map-pack maps and other high quality customs (not just a few), but that's not going to attract enough players if by default it's sorted to the bottom of the server list.

There are atm *92* custom maps available at my servers. Tried to use the voting system?

[Bloodsport]

But are they in the map-rot?

[pwnage{TyD}]

F9+M in the serverbrowser to check the online maprotation. Not all 92 maps are in rotation, but all of them can potentially be voted.

[ElCrema]

I don't relle care if its a ladder server or not, there is lots of times that I simply enjoy some pubing with the nubs, its fun, period.

Now this lack of competitiveness I don't buy it. There is always peeps on IRC ready to play a match or some private games, there is always loads of dudes eager to play a league (if ppl can't get over their differences and put their minds into organizing a serious one)
But lets be honest here for a moment: if you looking for real competition a free open source game is not an ideal place. AC is more about fun and friendly games, than real competition, and that is not in absolute, a bad thing, let me make that clear.

If one doesn't like TyD ladder, don't play there and if you relle interested in bring some competition back to AC, P@ndel, how about you talk your clan mates into playing the game more ;)

[P@ndel]

If one doesn't like TyD ladder, don't play there and if you relle interested in bring some competition back to AC, P@ndel, how about you talk your clan mates into playing the game more ;)

I do play on TyD, and mostly TyD since it provides one of the lowest pings for me.

I may shock you by saying this, but w00p is actually quite active ;) You may not see the screens of the matches, but games are played, and quite often. Besides, I would like to play with someone competitive besides my teammates ;)

And I will object to you saying that AC is not competitive because it is OS (whatever the connection is that you found between competitiveness and an open source game). Any game is competitive. Even pacman with 2 nerds playing it will become a battle ground for the two (again, for the nerds). It is a mere of personal choice and taste. You not finding this game suitable for competition does not make it competition-free for other guys who might find it, contrary to your view, very much competitive.

Getting people to play on IRC. That sure is a failure every time you do that, especially when it is for a public game. I consider it a success to just get some clan (pro or newbie) to play with. So, getting people on IRC to play in pubs... not a solution. Proven by experience.

And as a reply to previous posts...

The reason I mentioned a ladder is that, even though one may not necessarily play for the ladder, it does make a gathering place by itself, a place that joins people together. In the case of Hi-Skill it was a little more than that, it was due to Drakas and the way he ran things that made his servers so popular. So, it is not just the ladder, but also what it stands for (No, this is in no way an insult to Pwnage, just pure difference in how different people handle the same thing). After all, ACWC, the main even in AC gaming, was organized by Drakas.

[ElCrema]

Any game is competitive. Even pacman with 2 nerds playing it will become a battle ground for the two (again, for the nerds).

If this is all it takes for competitiveness, than I don't get why on earth are you complaining about AC not being competitive. We have plenty of nerds battling on pubs every day. Seems to me that in your opinion is more a matter of AC not having organized competition and here is where my point lays. Being an free Open source game, AC don't have ppl that profits from organized competition and therefore can and will spend time and money into it (its a job, for them).

The reason I mentioned a ladder is that, even though one may not necessarily play for the ladder, it does make a gathering place by itself, a place that joins people together. In the case of Hi-Skill it was a little more than that, it was due to Drakas and the way he ran things that made his servers so popular. So, it is not just the ladder, but also what it stands for (No, this is in no way an insult to Pwnage, just pure difference in how different people handle the same thing). After all, ACWC, the main even in AC gaming, was organized by Drakas.

AC has to rely on contribution from its community members, like Drakas, pwnage and many other to have its organized competition. Unfortunately along side with the gameplay competition that you like so much, came also a nonsense competition for prestige and power within the community. No one won or will win this competition P@ndel, everyone will loose. It's a shame that this keeps happening and this happens caus of attitudes like the one in your first post here, where you wanna show to everyone how bad AC is now compared to what it used to be (in your opinion, of course), like was also done in the transition form 1.0 to 1.1.

If ppl keep insisting with this foolishness this game is relle not gonna go nowhere and we gonna always have this stupid clash between a hand full of clans that assume that they own the game and the game is nothing without them. Let me remind you what happened when w00p tried to support an alternative master server: It failed miserably, caus AC is nothing without the everyday noobs and newbies, they don't know w00p, TyD, oNe or DES, they couldn't care less about them, they just wanna play and have some fun. We should learn with them!

[Joe Smith]

Any game is competitive. Even pacman with 2 nerds playing it will become a battle ground for the two (again, for the nerds).

If this is all it takes for competitiveness, than I don't get why on earth are you complaining about AC not being competitive. We have plenty of nerds battling on pubs every day. Seems to me that in your opinion is more a matter of AC not having organized competition and here is where my point lays. Being an free Open source game, AC don't have ppl that profits from organized competition and therefore can and will spend time and money into it (its a job, for them).

The reason I mentioned a ladder is that, even though one may not necessarily play for the ladder, it does make a gathering place by itself, a place that joins people together. In the case of Hi-Skill it was a little more than that, it was due to Drakas and the way he ran things that made his servers so popular. So, it is not just the ladder, but also what it stands for (No, this is in no way an insult to Pwnage, just pure difference in how different people handle the same thing). After all, ACWC, the main even in AC gaming, was organized by Drakas.

AC has to rely on contribution from its community members, like Drakas, pwnage and many other to have its organized competition. Unfortunately along side with the gameplay competition that you like so much, came also a nonsense competition for prestige and power within the community. No one won or will win this competition P@ndel, everyone will loose. It's a shame that this keeps happening and this happens caus of attitudes like the one in your first post here, where you wanna show to everyone how bad AC is now compared to what it used to be (in your opinion, of course), like was also done in the transition form 1.0 to 1.1.

If ppl keep insisting with this foolishness this game is relle not gonna go nowhere and we gonna always have this stupid clash between a hand full of clans that assume that they own the game and the game is nothing without them. Let me remind you what happened when w00p tried to support an alternative master server: It failed miserably, caus AC is nothing without the everyday noobs and newbies, they don't know w00p, TyD, oNe or DES, they couldn't care less about them, they just wanna play and have some fun. We should learn with them!

wow im in love... that was beautiful. perfectly said.

"""If ppl keep insisting with this foolishness this game is relle not gonna go nowhere and we gonna always have this stupid clash between a hand full of clans that assume that they own the game and the game is nothing without them. Let me remind you what happened when w00p tried to support an alternative master server: It failed miserably, caus AC is nothing without the everyday noobs and newbies, they don't know w00p, TyD, oNe or DES, they couldn't care less about them, they just wanna play and have some fun. We should learn with them!"""

^--AC is made up of many many dif things. and all them make AC.

[P@ndel]

Being an free Open source game, AC don't have ppl that profits from organized competition and therefore can and will spend time and money into it (its a job, for them).

Your point being? Because last time I checked Drakas did organize ACWC without asking any money, i.e. getting any profit from it.

No one won or will win this competition P@ndel, everyone will loose.

Yes, we did. Now there is no ACWC, no good players, no good competitive servers.

It's a shame that this keeps happening and this happens caus of attitudes like the one in your first post here, where you wanna show to everyone how bad AC is now compared to what it used to be (in your opinion, of course), like was also done in the transition form 1.0 to 1.1.

Those who agreed with me also "wanna show to everyone how bad AC is now compared to what it used to be"? Doubt that. You should stop understanding things backwards. I simply stated what I though about the game and what it has become. And so did a few other people, some agreeing and some disagreeing with my point.

If ppl keep insisting with this foolishness this game is relle not gonna go nowhere and we gonna always have this stupid clash between a hand full of clans that assume that they own the game and the game is nothing without them. Let me remind you what happened when w00p tried to support an alternative master server: It failed miserably, caus AC is nothing without the everyday noobs and newbies, they don't know w00p, TyD, oNe or DES, they couldn't care less about them, they just wanna play and have some fun. We should learn with them!

No comment if this is how you try to justify your argumentation.

[Lantry]

It also seems that this game without a good ladder as HI-SKILL before it was closed, offers no more than just another means to kill some time as do those free online flash games.
...
I would like to stress that without some quality ladder and quality servers this game, no matter how fun it may be, will not offer much competitiveness and seriousness with which the aforementioned players used to approach this game. I would like to appeal to the developers, to realize this apparent problem, to leave behind the differences in the views on how this game should be developed, and give some credit to Drakas who worked so hard to make this game competitive, and did succeed in this with his once so popular Hi-Skill servers and ladder. I am more than confident that his involvement will only help this game grow, offering some serious competitiveness to some serious players.

Thank you.

P@ndel

...
3. My post aims at providing a suggestion on how things can be improved from my point of view, which I shared with everyone, and do not understand how it can be "kissing ass", as you put it.
...

You didn't provide any suggestions, you kind of vaguely implied that the game needs a ladder. The only thing you actually suggest is to "give some credit to drakas". I can understand if you look up to the guy, but when the only thing you directly say is that the game needs him ("His involvement will only help the game grow"), you are not helping.

Nothing personal, just something i noticed.

I think if you are interested in more competitive gameplay, pub ladders aren't the way to go. You should get involved in clans and tournaments, which is where the more serious players turn up. If you can't find any of these, start your own!

[ElCrema]

Being that your reply, P@ndel: I rest my case!

[P@ndel]

I can understand if you look up to the guy, but when the only thing you directly say is that the game needs him ("His involvement will only help the game grow"), you are not helping.

I am not at an age to "look up to the guy". I am stating what I think is a solution to the problem. I have absolutely no bias or prejudice here, unlike some. I simply look at the past when we had over-crowded Hi-Skill server where you could always find some really tough guys playing any time of the day (at least for my time zone), and now when we got 24/7 douze servers, and none where whatever is left of the good players can meet and have one of those tough pub matches.

I think if you are interested in more competitive gameplay, pub ladders aren't the way to go.

Again, we did have competitive public games before. Many can confirm that (actually, if you read more carefully, there are people who already stated that in this topic).

[jiba]

I sense there's more to it, but just the plain existence of a ladder.

I too am now seeing this to be the case. Shame, I thought it could have been an interesting thread. I should have paid more attention to the first post.

[Xeoncross]

I simply look at the past when we had over-crowded Hi-Skill server where you could always find some really tough guys playing any time of the day (at least for my time zone), and now when we got 24/7 douze servers, and none where whatever is left of the good players can meet and have one of those tough pub matches.

Exactly, the only solutions put forth so far have been to 1) ignore this or 2) rename one of the TyD servers to emphasis it's importance as a primary hub.

Personally, I'm fine with option 2 - but if that isn't good enough then lets keep ideas coming. There's a fix - I know there is.