The Official Weapon Balance Thread!

[Stupefy]

Note: Updated for 1.1. I haven't played the absolute *latest* patch but have experienced 1.1's main changes (tarbine, helmet armor, etc). By all means continue to discuss 1.1.x weapon balance here :)

Bring up all your weapon concerns and thoughts here - now I know that weapons rely heavily upon the map and player, but nevertheless there are always things that need fine-tuning.

Asault Rifle:
Best shape of it's life. 20 round magazine and lowered recoil has finally made this weapon useful for something other than rifle-running in CTF.

SMG:
It seems to be versatile as ever though I believe some things have changed (recoil?). I usually keep away from SMG (not enough *oomph* for me) so more experienced players can comment on this.

Shotgun:
I feel that 1.0.4 Shotty was MORE than fine as it was. For unknown reasons it was over-tuned in 1.1, the extended range is simply not needed for a weapon that's already auto-win in short range maps. And has it always ignored armor or am I just seeing things? In either case, this weapon needs some adjusting.

Sniper:
Completely crippled against armor, far more than any other weapon. Yes the game is all about maximizing the use of pickups, yes the Sniper can still headshot but armor's effectiveness against the Sniper needs to be tuned down a little. You pay with your life for every shot you miss, you can't keep guzzling bullets like SMG/AR or 1-shot people with Shotgun (plus shotty has a crosshair). The hefty reload time should equal HEAVY damage whether it's against armor or not. A minimum of 50 damage against someone with 100 armor.

Tarbine:
I'm still learning how to use this. It doesn't feel like this weapon has a well-defined niche, but time (and players) will show the true potential of the weapon. Decent damage, goes well with Pistol or Knife (and does pretty damn well on it's own too), feels like a good balance between Sniper and Shotgun.

Pistol:
The perfect compliment to Sniper and probably the most deadly combination with a skilled opponent but again, the entire basis of that combo (1 sniper + 2 pistol = dead) goes out the window against armor. Otherwise the pistol continues to be a great support weapon.

Knife:
My absolute favorite, and also my biggest disappointment. There is so much awesome packed into this weapon despite being a support weapon.
> Armor reducing knife damage makes no sense at all. This is the last weapon that armor should affect, that's the entire point of a blade - to simply stab through gaps in the armor and cause a ton of hurt.
> A knife to the head should ATLEAST do 60-75 damage (+ gib). The static 50 damage on body can stay, but for the love of god make it ignore armor. There is a ton of skill needed for this weapon and again, it compliments the Sniper (or even Shotgun) quite nicely.

Grenades:
Asploding time! In great shape, no suggestions here. The 1-grenade-per-pickup was a brilliant idea and is working out very well from my experiences.

Armor:
See above. Lots of adjustments are needed. The 25-armor helmets are working out fine from what my experiences.

Akimbo:
Dual-wielding time! Unfortunately I don't run into this pickup as much as I like to, but I feel it's total damage output little low despite it's ridiculous rate of fire.

So, as for the discussion:
> What weapon/pickup do you love and why?
> Which weapon/pickup frustrates you and makes you want more out of it?
> Which weapon/pickup do you feel needs toning down?

Also, feel free to suggest any new weapon ideas you may have - but keep in mind we want to keep AC simple and fast-paced, a new weapon must be UNIQUE and you must prove that it is truly needed in AC. I know there were lots of new-weapon threads on the old boards but none of them really convinced the developers - maybe you can?

[jamz]

...All I can suggest is implement a 20-bullet magazine...

Since the AR has had it's magazine upped to 20 rounds in the SVN version, can I assume you haven't checked it out yet (in both senses)? There have been many weapon modifictions.

[JMM]

What would be the point of giving knife ability to headshot? Knife kills already coutn as gibs, would you get some kinda 3-frag zomgomgknifegibstroganoff if you head-knifed someone?

[Stupefy]

What would be the point of giving knife ability to headshot? Knife kills already coutn as gibs, would you get some kinda 3-frag zomgomgknifegibstroganoff if you head-knifed someone?

Knife kills count as gibs if that person was already at half health or less (assuming zero armor). What I'm suggesting is keeping the damage the same, but a knife to the head should instantly gib them exactly like sniper.

[Orynge]

2) A knife to the head = headshot. Seriously, if someone has managed to run right up to you with a KNIFE and stabs you in the head with it? Shouldn't they be rewarded more than if they were to simply use a shotgun and do a better job of it?

Not sure about this one stab would usually kill as well in real life.
And with headshots, people would just go around with knives and rush people.

1. I'm a bit even but I love the SMG. I haven't tried the beta yet except I think I'll like the AR more in 1.1. Another weapon I like is the shotgun.

2. Sniper rifle :)

3. SMG

That is all based on 1.0.4 though.

[Stupefy]

...All I can suggest is implement a 20-bullet magazine...

Since the AR has had it's magazine upped to 20 rounds in the SVN version, can I assume you haven't checked it out yet (in both senses)? There have been many weapon modifictions.

I don't understand, what is the SVN version? Is it possible to play on the live servers while having different versions of AC?

And with headshots, people would just go around with knives and rush people.

This would never work. I assure you a team trying to rush with knives will all be dead long before they reach the enemy base, even if they were extremely skilled, Shotguns and SMG's would be the end of them.

[Lightning]

SVN is basically the test version of later modifications in AC.

[makkE]

... The AR simply seems to be an inferior weapon to the SMG in almost every way. First of all, it's recoil makes landing headshots difficult....

Uhm - what? There are no headshots with any gun, exept the sniper.

[seagal]

I think you shouldnt put to much recoil on the smg. Last time i played ac it was nearly impossible to aim on faraway targets because of the random recoil. Maybe put something like less damage on furter targets into instead of more and more recoil. And indeed the ar was pretty useless compared to the smg when i played.

[Gibstick]

In the SVN version the SMG is much better. It takes 8 rounds to kill but the recoil comes progressively. So if you click in very short bursts you'll notice less recoil, but if you hold it down it goes almost to the top of the screen. I think it is fine this way because you can snipe across ac_douze :)
But you should play around with the new AR, aerkefiende somehow owns with it.
Now the pistol needs more bullets. You can barely kill with it.
If somehow, you could make it possible to knife someone when standing on top of them, I'll love you forever.

[seagal]

mm shooting in burst is a bad thing imo, the smg & sniper were perfectly balanced. Its just that some oldskool players got raped and then complained about the smg beeing "too strong" the recoil got increased. But in a close combat ctf game like this the smg should be the primary weapon and shouldnt have so much recoil that mid range battles are already impossible for most players.

[Lightning]

no offense or anything seagal, but what would you know about recoil? I don't think it's fair for you to blame other players for changes you don't like.

Anyway, AFAIK the wepaons have been balanced in the SVN version so I see no use for this thread.

[seagal]

I dont care, i dont play anymore. I just download ac again to check. But i think this much recoil prevent players getting better, mid range duals are already a joke since the crosshair just goes all around the place. And why should i no nothing about recoil, i think i played the game quite a while.

[KN!F3]

I don't want the knife to be too powerful or else my signature weapon would be too common ;P

I agree that it should break armor though. With the new helmets and more armor around the maps, 2 slashes should always kill or else it's a complete waste of time and will get you shredded down by a gun.

SMG recoil should be a bit spontaneous-- a little recoil left and right should hurt would it? Make first 3-5 bullets accurate and then the recoil kicks in to promote bursts. They already have something like this in SVN, but I suggest a little side kick.

Gib count- Headshot-2 Knife-2 Nade-1
This gives people who train and use skill to perform gibs 2 points instead of the 1 that could be given from spamming.
Works well

Assault Rifle- The reason smgs are extremely powerful and seem to be overused is lag. That's right. I said it. Lag. If someone just sprays bullets in someone's direction and the other person hides, the server and player lag will make those bullets still hit even after the target has ducked away. The reason is the firing speed of the smg outlags the speed of an ar and in comparison, the ar doesn't seem to kill as fast even though its only miliseconds of difference. This should be compensated for as assault rifle bullets are slower and dont "lag damage" as well after enemies have ran the corner.

Thanks for reading my thoughts,
Peace, KN!F3

[Stupefy]

... The AR simply seems to be an inferior weapon to the SMG in almost every way. First of all, it's recoil makes landing headshots difficult....

Uhm - what? There are no headshots with any gun, exept the sniper.

You know exactly what I meant, landing all the bullets on the head where they do by far the most damage :P

[PolarHedgehog]

[witty joke] Hows this the official weapon balance thread if you aren't in the dev team? [/witty joke]

OT: I think the perfect weapon balance would be = .93 stats + 20 AR clip + 1.0 SMG recoil (not 1.04 xP ).
Mainly because of the sniper glitch, but anyways ;D

*waits for stef & makke to flame me for liking .93 "glitchy" and "unbalanced" weapon stats* xD

[KN!F3]

You know exactly what I meant, landing all the bullets on the head where they do by far the most damage :P

I wish.

[Zarjio]

... The AR simply seems to be an inferior weapon to the SMG in almost every way. First of all, it's recoil makes landing headshots difficult....

Uhm - what? There are no headshots with any gun, exept the sniper.

You know exactly what I meant, landing all the bullets on the head where they do by far the most damage :P

AFAIK they do the same damage no matter where you hit someone.

[LaNterN]

In 1.1 shotguns shouldn't gib.

[Gibstick]

I like the nice visual effect. It doesn't give any extra frags (at least it's not supposed to). What we need is a better pistol :)

[JSchweigert]

What we need is a better pistol :)

^ This.

[LaNterN]

Gibstick, it gives you a gib which I think is more points.

[Orynge]

Lantern, it gibbed but didn't give any extra points, is what he said.

[Cactus]

AFAIK they do the same damage no matter where you hit someone.

Thought so too.

In 1.1 shotguns shouldn't gib.

LOL true. That'd literally ruin the game.

What we need is a better pistol :)

Agree. Although I understand the problems this will cause (overpowered advantage for sniper+pistol users) but at the moment I don't see any use for it for an SMG/AR/SG user (personally). Even as a backup weapon, you're more likely to get frags if you just look for ammo. Then again, I ain't a 'skilled' pistol user.

[Stupefy]

AFAIK they do the same damage no matter where you hit someone.

Well I'm feeling silly now aren't I. After playing so much AC I was completely convinced that shooting people in the head with automatic weapons (i.e. AR/SMG) killed them atleast twice as fast than shooting them in the foot.

I still can't be convinced that the bullets do exactly the same damage no matter where they hit. As far as I was aware, the only thing differentiating a complete newb with an SMG and a pro with an SMG is this: the pro is capable of extremely fast and efficient SMG kills due to having good aim and always landing all his bullets directly on the head.

Is it really just an illusion that I'm under?

[Ruthless]

Is it really just an illusion that I'm under?

Indeed it is..

[V-Man]

- I love the SMG, because its damage rating is the highest of all weapons (200 hit points per second!). I take it as an engaging challenge that 1.1 will see it toned down.

- As a backup weapon I love the 1.0.4 pistol and am glad to see its precision nudged up a bit in the 1.1 SVN.

- The sniper rifle is great for long-range backup and base guarding. I'm sad to see it used like a shotgun in tight corners like in mines (XD). If I were more confident in my aim (or if the sniper had a crosshair -- see carbine comments below), I'd be a sniper for sure.

- The shotgun can be frustrating when I get hit with close-range one-hit frags, but I've always had the philosophy of adapting to existing conditions, and have found it moderately easy to dodge. I'm glad to see motivation in 1.1 SVN given to use it at longer ranges. I've never gotten the hang of the shotgun though. I have to ask you shotgunners, what mouse sensitivity do you use?

- The 1.0.4 Assault Rifle is useless except in the gemas made just for it. I found the 1.1 SVN Assault Rifle to be on par with the SMG, so I'm very grateful for the improvements.

- The 1.1 carbine is incredibly powerful, powerful enough to convince this die-hard SMG spammer to make it my weapon of choice for the evening when I tried playing 1.1 pubs. I wouldn't have picked it, but two-shot kills and such a low shot-recycle-time were just too tempting. Thankfully it's still in the development phase so the devs can nerf it down (or beef up the other weapons to catch up to it!).

+1 to KN!F3, especially regarding nades' gib/frag count.

[makkE]

Let me add a bit about the shotgun: In 1.0.4 - due to a misunderstanding - the recoil increases with every shot, try shooting it sucessively and you'll see - wich of course is not the intended behaviour. Might make it hard for low/mid sensitivities to control it, whereas high sens players might not even notice it much. I apologise, it's probably my fault :P 1.1 fixes this of course.

[Harps]

imo, and this may be a high amount of nostalgia but:

the 0.93 weapon balance was fine (to an extent), although it needed a few minor changes.. the smg could be well argued to be overpowered, but it was one of the things that made the game more fast paced back then. imo ar should have kept its 20 ammo clip size from 0.92 :) (though, this doesnt matter anymore with 1.1)

instead of increasing recoil for the smg, a 1/2 point lower dmg per shot value should have been added.

with those that used the sniper 'quick switch bug', which of course is now fixed, they didn't take their time to aim in between rapid shots, thus it was kind of balanced. with the sniper i guess when the bug was fixed a slightly lower reload time should have been induced in keeping with the fast paced nature (and re-aligning it with a lower recoil smg and 20 clip ar)

shotgun was just fine :)

the nades were amazing back then, being slightly 'sticky' (you could make them stick to the enemies head hitbox if you aimed well). imo, now they are far too bouncy, i know this was because of the change in dropping /minframetime 5 etc. although attempts have been made to return them the magical '0.93 feeling', i guess it still isnt right :p

although no one really cares about any of this, its just a pointless rant seeing as any reversion to all of these changes would be seen as 'too big of a leap' and that fact that some of them have been fulfilled. these are just my two, slightly fruitless cents.

[seagal]

"instead of increasing recoil for the smg, a 1/2 point lower dmg per shot value should have been added."
agreed, good idea.