9th Endorsed Mapping Contest

[Mr.Floppy]

Sorry for going off-topic, but finally Undead has revealed what he really is. A hopeless narcissist, who doesn't honestly care about AC, but a whole lot about himself. Seriously, let people decide on their own whether or not to participate on this contest. Only because you think something is right/wrong doesn't neccessarily mean it is in fact right/wrong.

You had your chance to set up your 'perfect' mapping contest the last two years. No need to brag how you would have done it all the best in one day, now. Hilarious...

Now start your oh-so well educated arguments. I don't care.

[Undead]

Sorry for going off-topic, but finally Undead has revealed what he really is. A hopeless narcissist, who doesn't honestly care about AC, but a whole lot about himself.

thats a very bold assumption. but wait a moment, if i didn't care about AC, why would i even bother to keep playing the game when i don't get along with most of the community? we've seen many people quit AC when the community pissed them off (drakas, pwnage, apollo, etc.). i think its because i like the game, not the community. but wait a moment, i have barely seen you around since 2009, yet you're a developer. the narcissistic crony is trying to call me a narcissist.

hold on, lets keep going. my interest in this tournament is purely in encouraging good maps to be created. if you allocate 1/6th of points to gameplay, you encourage people to create art pieces, not good maps with interesting gameplay. AC suffers as a result.

if you set an expectation that maps are judged based on their gameplay rather than their aesthetics, more people will be encouraged to create better maps, because not only is the technical skill ceiling lowered, which means more people will try to map, your map gets played more because its fun to play on. now, how is that selfish again?

have you considered for a moment that the reason there are very few active mappers at the moment is because the mapping community is terrible, and something needs to change?

Seriously, let people decide on their own whether or not to participate on this contest. Only because you think something is right/wrong doesn't neccessarily mean it is in fact right/wrong.

i'm not forcing anyone to do anything. its a strong suggestion, yes, but i think its reasonable. if halo is going to subscribe to nonsense, then clearly something needs to be done.

and again, unless you think that maps are designed to be art-pieces, which some people do, i'm undeniably correct. it isn't about whether i said it, its just a true statement. putting 1/6th of points into gameplay is an absurdity.

You had your chance to set up your 'perfect' mapping contest the last two years. No need to brag how you would have done it all the best in one day, now. Hilarious...

i have not had the desire to run a mapping contest because i had lost faith in mapping, but i'm a bit more interested in it now. that isn't bullshit btw, i have absolutely zero idea how halo's thread constitutes 'three months of planning'.

Now start your oh-so well educated arguments. I don't care.

saying that will not stop me from addressing your bullshit. you only wrote that because you knew i was going to tear you down if i chose to reply.

i can't help but feel that every single person arguing with me has not read a single thing i have written. why?

[Mr.Floppy]

"i can't help but feel that every single person arguing with me has not read a single thing i have written. why?"
 - by some nacrissist.

[Undead]

"i can't help but feel that every single person arguing with me has not read a single thing i have written. why?"
 - by some nacrissist.

would you like to address what i've said instead of poorly trolling?

is that even possible?

the fact that every single person arguing with me has resorted to personal attacks is hilarious, honestly.

[Luc@s]

thats a very bold assumption. but wait a moment, if i didn't care about AC, why would i even bother to keep playing the game when i don't get along with most of the community? we've seen many people quit AC when the community pissed them off (drakas, pwnage, apollo, etc.). i think its because i like the game, not the community.

no, this is because you are the one pissing off the community.
and if you left it, the only difference would be less bitching on the forums and ingame. When Drakas or pwnage left the community, the difference was that we got fewer improvements and less fun playing the game.

[Undead]

no, this is because you are the one pissing off the community.

lucas, the other half of the community is pissed at you.

should we tell them about what you were doing with the ACWC clients in your own personal interest?

or should we tell them about how you won't release the server binaries for your match mod because you want you and your friends to control competitive AC?

or should we tell them about how you personally said to me that you 'don't give a shit about AC'?

or should we tell them about how you cried to me for about an hour about how everyone in AC is against you?

and if you left it, the only difference would be less bitching on the forums and ingame.

i am doing all i can to fight for the truth, because its the only way to improve AC. unfortunately, the truth hurts egotistical brats like yourself.

When Drakas or pwnage left the community, the difference was that we got fewer improvements and less fun playing the game.

the same drakas that demanded $150 to pay for server costs for a month, then disbanded his servers when he didn't get donations?
the same pwnage that went absolutely insane with his blacklist and banned half of AC?
i'm not even going into much detail, there are waaay more instances of them acting like assholes.
get your rose-tinted glasses off, please. i'm very thankful that they aren't involved in AC anymore, because they were killing it.

[Marti]

#Undead4dev

[Mousikos]

So this is a themed mapping contest, yes? Cool. Let's get that out of the way. If you don't match the theme, you shouldn't get judged at all, right? Because you don't bring a dog show dog to a car show. So that seems really important. Let's allocate 50% to this.

But so is gameplay. You can make the best castle in the world, but if it's not playable, it's not a very good map. Let's allocate 50% to this.

How about textures? Textures ties into theme. If your castle looks like a spaceship, people are not going to think it's a castle or willl at least think it's a very strange castle. So let's throw this into theme.

How about lighting? You could have the best layout in the world, but if you can't see anything, it might as well not play. Let's put this 50% as gameplay, 50% as theme.

Sounds. If your castle sounds like a spaceship and maybe looks like a spaceship, it's a god damn space ship. But wait. This affects gameplay too doesn't it? Imagine if we had to play to 15 minutes of nyancat.... So maybe 75% theme, 25% gameplay.

Detail? This is theme. 100%

0.5 Overall theme, 0.5 overall gameplay.

Theme:
Textures (1) , Sound (0.75), Lighting (0.5), Detail (1)

Gameplay:
Sound (0.25), Lighting (0.5), Layout (1)

To scale theme, scale 3.25 to 0.5
~15.4% Textures
~15.4% Detail
~11.5% Sound
~7.7% Lighting

To scale gameplay, scale 1.75 to 0.5
28.6% is Layout
14.3% is gameplay lighting
7.1% is gameplay sound

This system has flaws (I admit it. I did this in one and it's not even 0800 right now), but let's check out the results (keep in mind i deemphasized theme here):

15.4% Textures, 15.4% Detail, 18.6% Sound, 22% Lighting, 28.6% Layout

Okay cool. But we kind of took out the whole "how good is your theme" thing. But should we do 50% theme, 50% gameplay?

Let's assume I made a map with superb layout. 100%. As far as visibility is concerned, I don't need fullbright to see stuff. And the sounds aren't gameplay affecting. This gives me 50% right?

But wait this is a castle themed contest. It looks like a damn spaceship. I fail textures. It sounds like a brothel instead of a castle. I fail theme sounds. We're supposed to be outside at night but it looks like inside with a bright light. I fail theme lighting. But there is a lot of really good detail that helps with gameplay (Maybe put some of this in the gameplay section?)

So overall, I got 30.8% in the theme section, but 100% in the gameplay section. Does it make sense to faili the theme but still have a passing score in a themed contest? I personally think this should be weighted. But before that, let's try to put part of the detail in layout. Let's readjust:

Theme:
Textures (1) , Sound (0.75), Lighting (0.5), Detail (0.75)

Gameplay:
Sound (0.25), Lighting (0.5), Layout (1), Detail (0.25)

Theme:
Textures: 16.7%, Sound 12.5%. 8.3% Lighting, 12.5% Detail
Gameplay:
25% Layout, 12.5% Lighting, 6.25% (only because rounding) Sound, 6.25% Detail

Textures: 16.7%
Sound (Overall): 18.75%
Lighting (Overall): 20.8%
Detail (Overall): 18.75%
Layout: 25%

Now, there's a certain bit of wiggling you can do, but I have to prepare for class soon so....
1/6 is 16.7%. Looks close to me, especially if i want to account for [Castle] Theme instead of just sounds/lighting/detail that matches the CHOSEN theme instead of the CONTEST theme. Seems to be getting closed and closed to 1/6.

[EndGame]

Hi all. I've read carefully all your post. I have to say that as Undead suggested, gameplay should weight a lot more. You can have an "ugly" map but as long as it is fun to play, people will play it (which is the main aim at the end of the day). This is not true the other way round though. Mousikos gave a very good idea on which we can work.

However, As a teacher I can only demand clearer criteria. For example, how are you evaluating lightening? You need to be as objective as possible and stick to a clear evaluating rubric known by everybody. Doing this, you will avoid judging "oh, I like it. 3 points" or "oh, it's good. 2 points" for further questions about evaluation, just pm me. I can guide you on it.

[Nightmare]

My map is coming along, just having some max area issues, just over 29,000 -.-
Guess I have to clog it up with solids. It has enough to the point where there is no fps drops, but silly map requisites be hatin'.

[RKTnoob]

I have a map too, and the height check is 49 995 (max allowed is 49 999), silly map requisites be hatin'.

[Nightmare]

le edit: Finally got it under 10,000. Took away a lot of the creativity, but the core is still there at least.

---

Map will be called ac_DEStiny. A deathmatch map for 2-6 players. No team action.
Will be a desert fortress city theme with lots of vertical shooting action and long range opportunities.

A large building or group of buildings, fortified against attack with thick walls.

Hence it completely meets the definition of a castle, and can't get wrecked in the theme department.

Layout will roughly be like this.

[Cemer]

can we just take a vote on how vote distribution should be or something

i just want everyone who wants to make a map to make a map and we can all hold hands and sing as the sun sets and we dream of better pastures for ac

[Undead]

@Mousikos

if you're going to judge in a 'scientific' way, you can't make assumptions based on little factual evidence or make up variables as you go. this is elementary stuff lol.

a 50/50 split is a system i decided on in 30 seconds when i first read the thread, it was a mere suggestion. the point underlying that suggestion is that you can't allocate a pitiful score to gameplay, and such a split would at least make it less bullshit.

i guarantee you that almost everyone who participates in this contest won't make the silly mistakes that you have suggested, and even in the event that they did, as long as it didn't effect gameplay, i really don't see the issue.

This system has flaws

precisely, which is why you arrive at an insane result.

here is the issue with your system: you're assigning percentage values to map elements, when the importance of these map elements is subjective, and thus every person who tries to follow your formula would arrive at different results.

some of your justifications went like this:

How about textures? Textures ties into theme. If your castle looks like a spaceship, people are not going to think it's a castle or willl at least think it's a very strange castle. So let's throw this into theme.

you're again forgetting that the most primary and important element of a map is the gameplay itself. so what if it looks like a spaceship? if it plays amazingly, i don't see the issue, and if they manage to win the competition in scoring 0/10 for theme i'd be impressed.

you're assigning almost equal importance to detail elements and the gameplay, and your result reflects this. e.g. 1:1 importance between gameplay and lightning.

if you truely believe that lighting is half as important to gameplay as the layout itself, you're probably insane, but you'll end up at that same result.

honestly, i don't think people who are arguing with me are stupid, i just think that you have different objectives. you want art pieces, and i want good maps. its that simple.

[RKTnoob]

Here's what I have so far, and I'd call it 50% complete.
http://rghost.net/60503679

[Pi_Halo]

My argument with good layout vs art pieces is this; what is the clear difference of neither get play time? Stellar is an art piece, obviously, doesn't get play time, while on the same front, your cavern1.2 you hype so much would be considered a good layout by your standards (not mine) and still doesn't get play time. There are wrongs in both standards and on both fronts there are maps who don't get play time. Art pieces or layouts, there are still examples of both that several a huge blow in popularity.

[Undead]

your cavern1.2 you hype so much would be considered a good layout by your standards (not mine) and still doesn't get play time.

well, you don't play clan matches, so it isn't your niche. i'm not really concerned whether or not it gets play time on pub servers, i never designed it for that purpose

There are wrongs in both standards and on both fronts there are maps who don't get play time. Art pieces or layouts, there are still examples of both that several a huge blow in popularity.

i can't think of any maps with fun layouts that don't get played. also, if a map gets played often, my opinion on whether it has a good layout or not doesn't matter, because clearly people have fun on it, and that is all the matters really.

[Marti]

Cavern1.2 gets played more than stellar. Cavern1.2 is a proper competitive map

[Mousikos]

he said some stuff here

Mate, I wrote this in 5 minutes or less like 5 minutes after i got out of bed (so still sleepy), so please excuse my mistakes. Please keep in mind that I'm not a mapper as well so I'm not really sure how the weights should be skewed. My thing is more of a framework for people to refine later. I don't doubt my results are a bit insane. I'm not happy with them either, but I had things to do this morning so I left it at that. So, if you don't mind, please don't tell me what I already know: the system I made up really quickly is (heavily?) flawed. Instead, I would appreciate it if you could give me some sort of idea on exactly /how/ to skew these factors properly.

PS: I'm not looking for works of art or I'd play another game. Let's be real, AC doesn't have the best graphics.

[Cemer]

why was the poll deleted

[Pi_Halo]

Well, I deleted it. Not because I'm scared of being proved wrong like I know someone here will say, but because there is no real point now that exoduss launched a contest with such in mind. No point in having 2 exact same contest, let the mapper choice which he or she wishes to be apart of. Better to have options then a mirror of the same thing.

[Undead]

why was the poll deleted

should also be said that my option was winning, but i'm also fine with halo offering an alternative

[Nightmare]

Which charity should I give my $50 to when I win?

[Pi_Halo]

Should also be said that I don't have an issue with change, unlike a lot of people do in the community. Nor am I against exoduss's mapping contest, I just think he could have approached me better about it (and just mere days after name dropping me in a topic). This contest here is for more traditional mapping while exoduss's would be for the competitive scene. This brings back up the debate of dividing maps up based off their potential target so I won't repeat that. I will however encourage people to do as they wish and enter which ever one they so desire. Good luck with whatever you do choice.

[Marti]

Which charity should I give my $50 to when I win?

to the M.Nator Foundation. Helping heroin addicts in NL.

[Pi_Halo]

I've been meaning to post here. Because there are 3 mapping contest going, any map(s) that are made for any of the other 2 contest can be submitted into this contest as well providing they fit the theme. It still fits the rules of not being released before the start of the contest so by that it can still be entered here as well.

In other news, anyone have anything they want to share on progress?

[-Subjective]

Which charity should I give my $50 to when I win?

to the M.Nator Foundation. Helping heroin addicts in NL.

So the money is basicly going to me  

[Nightmare]

Needs a detail reworking later but I'm too lazy. Final entry here.

Entry: ac_DEStiny
Designed for DM only.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/h1wu0a...EStiny.cgz
It has the secret of life in the .cfg file but I'm keeping that closed source.

[Snoosnoo]

Needs a detail reworking later but I'm too lazy. Final entry here.

Entry: ac_DEStiny
Designed for DM only.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/h1wu0a...EStiny.cgz
It has the secret of life in the .cfg file but I'm keeping that closed source.

I think you may make two wins of a mapping competion and then you'll be the best mapper that ever lived

[Pi_Halo]

Also, capital letters in map names is frowned upon. Obviously you wanted in our the mapping cash cow that is DES by doing such, but it won't get you any brownie points. So you might as well name it correctly.