Upcoming Release Balance Discussion (SVN)

[ElCrema]

This thread is becoming more and more like a election campaign: VOTE FOR SMG, IN AR WE TRUST, SNIPER FOR PRESIDENT! Gimme a break!

Elite why on earth do you believe that your opinion matters and Mai Mee Tur's doesn't? Now what, this game should be ruled by the 20 best players, like you said?

This actually reminded me of a very hard task that those dealing with weapon balance will have to face, that goes beyond the numbers discussed here: The one between a good weapon balance for pub games or for clan matches. Imo they are two very different things. I personally think that it should always favour de pubs, caus is there where the action really happens.
I gave my opinion about the weapon balance here already, btw. And I vote for smg!

[Mai Mee Tur]

Eh, as far as I know, all the weapon stats for the 1.1 is already fixed, aside from shotty.

[ExodusS]

Enemy without armor: 1 sniper shot + pistol shot
Enemy with 25armor: 1 sniper shot + 2 pistol shots
Enemy with 50, 75 armor: 1 sniper shot + 3 pistol shots
Enemy with 100 armor: 1 sniper shot +4 pistol

Devs, now you have the values. :D

[SleepKiller]

Enemy without armor: 1 sniper shot + pistol shot
Enemy with 25armor: 1 sniper shot + 2 pistol shots
Enemy with 50, 75 armor: 1 sniper shot + 3 pistol shots
Enemy with 100 armor: 1 sniper shot +4 pistol

Devs, now you have the values. :D

It is up to the devs not you to decide what damage and style the sniper should be played with.

[YourSister]

I personally think that it should always favour de pubs, caus is there where the action really happens.

what?

[Bukz]

People have to remember that there is a public side to this game as well. In fact I think the majority of players just play on the public servers and don't really pay much attention to clans/forums/ect. While we try to cater to both the competitive and public sides, it's not an easy thing to balance. With the amount of conflicting opinions this community has about weapon balance it's tough to make decisions about it that the majority will agree with.

Again, IMHO the AR is the most overpowered weapon in 1.1.0.4 and should get a little bit of nerf in the next version. I think both "sides" of the community will benefit. Maybe it's time for another poll? lol

[pweaks]

People have to remember that there is a public side to this game as well. In fact I think the majority of players just play on the public servers and don't really pay much attention to clans/forums/ect. While we try to cater to both the competitive and public sides, it's not an easy thing to balance. With the amount of conflicting opinions this community has about weapon balance it's tough to make decisions about it that the majority will agree with.

Again, IMHO the AR is the most overpowered weapon in 1.1.0.4 and should get a little bit of nerf in the next version. I think both "sides" of the community will benefit. Maybe it's time for another poll? lol

Where are then those public gamers at? I don't see them discussing here about the balance.

[jAcKRoCk*]

That's because they only care to play, not many get envolved by the community aspect of the game.

I do believe that the pubs is where the "action" happens, all of us came from there, "pros" and regular players, we all started there in the pubs. So yeah I think just like TheCrema.

Defending one weapon or other isn't going to take us very far, we need to look at the bigger picture.

[pweaks]

On the other hand, I F1 for Bukz about the poll thing.

[ExodusS]

People have to remember that there is a public side to this game as well. In fact I think the majority of players just play on the public servers and don't really pay much attention to clans/forums/ect.

Players like this don'tcare about the weapon balance.

I think a good poll on the AC forum is enough because everyone who care about it are here atm.

[Nightmare]

1) I actually think 1.1.0.4's shotgun is fine. Nobody uses it in inters/clan matches, except for cool people like ShadowFlameZ. It wouldn't be a big deal at all if the servers had 10 player slots instead of 20 max. :) None of the maps are rigged up for that many players, those servers always lag, and there would be twice as many populated servers if it was 10 max instead of 20. Especially for a game boasting about how sexy it is with dial-up users. Too bad MakKe's 8 max idea got shot down before by ctf douze playing devs. :'(

2) If it's balanced for CM's, it'll be balanced for pubs. :) Exception being a decent shotgun getting thrown into ac_arid 10vs10 ctf.

[Mr.OpTic]

[...] except for cool people like ShadowFlameZ. [...]

tl;dr ;)



I agree with the majority of what has been said. I think it would be nice to have the sniper/pistol stats that kchub mentioned, or keep the sniper the same (as in 1.1.0.4), and nerf the AR somehow. Whether it be taking a few rounds off the clip, or lowering the kickback recoil, for slower rifle sprints.

[ElCrema]

I personally think that it should always favour de pubs, caus is there where the action really happens.

what?

Players like this don'tcare about the weapon balance.

I think a good poll on the AC forum is enough because everyone who care about it are here atm.

You mistaken dude, they might not discuss it here, but they do care, that's why I think that the SG should not be tuned down as much as it is on SVN now, caus its the main "newbie" weapon. If guys start to play this game and can't even have a few kills in the first few matches, they will leave. And we all saw what happened when the "pros" decided to go for an alternative masterserver during the 1.04 transition: It fail miserably and it died in a few weeks, caus guess what? This game is nothing without the everyday newbies and noobs. This game is about the pubs, it's what keeps it going, as much as the established clan players want to believe otherwise...

So yes, weapon balance have to take the pubs in consideration, more than anything else!

[flowtron]

I don't care much for an approach seeking the lowest common denominator; if there's no challenge there's no fun. If it's really necessary to pamper newcomers a half-damage mode of play might be a consideration - it'd make the frustration of constantly dying a bit less hard to bear, but everybody would have to be willing to play in the watered-down mode.
IMHO it's impossible to have a fair game that works both for beginners, intermediaries and veterans alike.
Why should someone use the carbine if everybody knows the shotgun is the weapon to get frags most easily?!? The purpose of the balance effort is to make the choice of weapon a personal/strategic one, no one weapon is meant to be able to dominate any other. This is not particularly realistic, admittedly, but does what it says on the tin: achieves balance.

[ExodusS]

1)
2) If it's balanced for CM's, it'll be balanced for pubs. :) Exception being a decent shotgun getting thrown into ac_arid 10vs10 ctf.

This is stupid cause:
CM CTF = Capture the Flag
PUB CTF = Frags Frags the Frags

And ladders are running in that case as long as ratio/frag/death will be showed.

[YourSister]

I still didn't express my opinion

Shotty is ok, it works decently in gothic/arid
Sniper should have more damage, considering that helmets give more armor
Smg should be more accurate on long distances
AR should have 15 bullets like before, and more recoil
Carabine should don't care about armor, and just givr 60 damage
knife = 100 damage

[Nightmare]

@YourSister - Carbine negating armor <3

@Exo - Depends on the pub/players in it. :s I actually play to win pubs, than to ratio whore. :) Blocking the enemy to protect a flagrunner, etc.

[Jason]

If you would give such AR guys a smg , like they used in 1.0.4, they would get raped more than ever before.

No doubt, right Jason-baby? lmao.

If anything the SMG was an easier weapon to use than the AR is now back in 1.0.

As for SMG, lower the spread, keep the dmg and recoil the same, you have a fast gun that can kill in the same time as an AR (assuming they have no kevlar) handles much easier than AR anyway, and has a larger clip. On top of that assuming you gave it less spread over AR, you've got a gun where the player can choose 'accuracy' (SMG) over 'firepower vs kevlar' (AR). How you would choose the values for spread etc is another matter for the devs to ponder.

As for SMG, there a plenty of fearsome SMG players in this version like Chris, sometimes Horus I swear, even ech0 is kicking about with it still, and Sepehr! Infact Sepehr with SMG is more scary than say Benson with AR imo, (but that's probably just his insane lag :L)

[lucky]

lol still mentioning lag issue i see Jason <3

[Stranz]

i half agree and disagree with crema's post. new players should be encouraged to play by the need to improve and gaining skill to get into the game or at least get hang of it. i don't know of a game where you get rewarded for doing nothing by just firing your gun, that'd make no sense as a goal to keep players of not quitting just cause is "too frustrating" for them at start, is not the right approach that's all.

that also raise a point where players shouldn't really care about their skill as there's no need of improvement, personally i think it makes pubs less interesting and probably that's why people who looks for a decent match likes most playing inters and clan matches as there's better level there (for now they may serve as ratio whoring for good players aside of some decent game time to time)

as far as weapon balance, shotgun shouldn't get a major change as still lacks on difference to the rest of guns.

If there's a chance to gain good skill with smg even if it takes plenty of work and improvement as getting close to the top players, it doesn't really need quite a big change imo.

AR is close to covering every aspect making the first weapon of choice (no idea if it's good or bad).

Sniper may need some work against kevlar (well aware of the fact is a long distance weapon no need to mention, still as crowded this game is, still quite a challenge not getting killed if not by lot of tactic and some luck).

About carbine i don't even know how much has been spoken about it and myself haven't tried it as doesn't merge with my needs, yep silly argument.

[ElCrema]

I don't care much for an approach seeking the lowest common denominator; if there's no challenge there's no fun. If it's really necessary to pamper newcomers a half-damage mode of play might be a consideration - it'd make the frustration of constantly dying a bit less hard to bear, but everybody would have to be willing to play in the watered-down mode.
IMHO it's impossible to have a fair game that works both for beginners, intermediaries and veterans alike.
Why should someone use the carbine if everybody knows the shotgun is the weapon to get frags most easily?!? The purpose of the balance effort is to make the choice of weapon a personal/strategic one, no one weapon is meant to be able to dominate any other. This is not particularly realistic, admittedly, but does what it says on the tin: achieves balance.

I don't think AC should pamper newbies and the everyday noobs. But I do think that we should ALWAYS keep in mind that this game is 90% pubs and a great majority of those players don't come to these forums to voice their opinion. The discussion here is more and more gravitating around clan matches and seasoned players fighting for their weapon of choice. Killing the most popular newbie weapon for the next version (the actual SVN values done that, at least atm) because some think is an annoying noobcanon is a big mistake imo.

[Luc@s]

again, the shotgun has been "recoded" and its current values are temporary... And flowtron made a mod to allow you to help us finding the best values

EDIT : zomg

[paulmuaddibKA]

Today a though crossed my brain. I see a lot of people who, on ladder servers, get away on many maps with incredible ratios, such as 37 6 or so. I wonder how many use SMG and how many other weapons. SMG can be good for close combat as some say but it comes with a cost of dying a lot. Just my opinion...

[Ronald_Reagan]

again, the shotgun has been "recoded" and its current values are temporary... And flowtron made a mod to allow you to help us finding the best values

EDIT : zomg

More information here

Forgot the link :)

[ExodusS]

Today a though crossed my brain. I see a lot of people who, on ladder servers, get away on many maps with incredible ratios, such as 37 6 or so. I wonder how many use SMG and how many other weapons. SMG can be good for close combat as some say but it comes with a cost of dying a lot. Just my opinion...

I sometimes, but with Carabine/Sniper cause i rarely play SMG in publics.
I know i'm not the only one at all and when i'm getting headshoted, i often say "ns" or "gg".
But nobody plays Carabine. D:

[Felix-The-Ghost]

But nobody plays Carabine. D:

I was like pwning the crap out of an entire team in CTF with it and I got called a noob. Of course, when you're good, people will acuse you of anything. It's just annoying getting kicked for "aimbotting" (having good aim/reflexes) and "speedhacks" (strafe-running) :/

[CharlyMurphie]

But nobody plays Carabine. D:

Cept onebody :p

[Robtics]

I think the sniper is very perfect atm, it should stay the way it is!
The SMG is a little harder, I'd like to see less spread but not too much ;)
AR maybe with 18 bullets instead of 20? 15 isnt enough IMHO - dont want the MT easter egg to apply again ;D (veterans will get it ;))

No idea about carbine and shotty, I kinda like to play with the carbine but its extremly hard as you really got to hit everything ... no idea what already changed with the shotty sorry :D

just my input ;)

[Noobicus]

But nobody plays Carabine. D:

Cept onebody :p

onebody+1
Call me B}abyMurph - carbiner apprentice

[ExodusS]

I often do, the Carabine is a good weapon, sometimes a lot of your frags are stealed but it's good in CM too.



I just remember Fra vs Legacy, i was @Carabine on ac_mines against Xenon Sepher and Jason, and we won. :p