General behaviour and shit
#31
(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Then could he explain himself on why he did that? Because it's not quite clear for most people considering Nightmare had the permissions to do it. Besides the fact that he did not appreciate things that were said in this thread, I can't really see a valid reason.
Here is the reason : the thread went quickly into a flamewar. Also, iirc, Nightmare wasn't given the permission to make this thread.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: People are moving to Sauer not only because devs don't consider their suggestions. They move because the game is more active, different, interesting, the community is nice, competitive aswell as pub scene are both fun to play and they don't feel like the game has been "stucked" for 2 years (ik devs are working, but the non-release is frustrating :/)
I find your remark pretty funny actually. Sauer is worse then AC on many points; Despite an impressive set of "official" maps, only a few are played (and they're played all the time).
It's seems very hard to play something else than insta ctf / regen capture.
Teamkilling a serious issue in this game. Most often you can even kick. On some servers you have to auth and do a report....
On AC, if a tker wasn't kicked by the autokick/friendly fire check system, you can still kick him manually.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Ofc taking every suggestion into account is not the solution, otherwise it'd be such a mess. But I believe some suggestions were great and lots of people thought the same, however, most of those ideas were rejected or not implemented for some (unknown?) reasons.
Which ones ? Your posts lacks of examples.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: [The devs] seem not to want to share a part of their task when many people are ready to help. And then when people cry/whine about the late release, they respond that they "don't have enough people to fix bugs and help the release"... paradoxal uh?
Wrong. We were offered some help for a few new possible features only and it is very recent. I'm not trying to minimize what some did, ofc.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Well when you develop a public game, you basically do it for those who play it.
I don't want to go into this debate, but clearly, no.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: But when people from the community are ready to give their help & knowledge for free, to make the game better, why don't you accept it?
What the hell ? We're accepting it ...


(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: I'm not on the AC forums for very long, but correct me if i'm wrong; RK was active back in 1.0 version and was part of the dev team, during 1.1, i hardly ever heard about him being active on the AC forums but he's been back for like... 6 months?
Anyway, since he's back, i've notice that he has banned several persons everytime they would complain about something related to devs. Before he came back, I can not remember that many ban entries and not even a week after he came back active on the forums, he started the "stfu or ban" campaign.
Correlation doesn't imply causation. A few members of the forums were spreading bullshit and being very offensive recently. They were banned for these reasons. I know people tend to forgot the reasons fast, but they are valid.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: I don't really appreciate the fact that some mods "allow themself" to remove, delete or silence what people want to say as soon as it's criticisms or remarks. If people who develop the game do not accept criticsm, advices or help... what are we left to?
Be quiet, and wait some more months sticking to AC ? People do not want that and it's basically the reason why people are leaving AC..

That's silly. We accept criticisms. We don't accept /offensive/ criticisms.
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#32
(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Then could he explain himself on why he did that? Because it's not quite clear for most people considering Nightmare had the permissions to do it. Besides the fact that he did not appreciate things that were said in this thread, I can't really see a valid reason.
There were actual and valid reasons (see Lucas' post above) and anyway, a moderator is not forced to give explanations. When you register on a forum you accept an agreement, that usually involves moderators' action, so you should have thought twice before complaining, or just before registering, if you didn't want to follow the rules.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: People are moving to Sauer not only because devs don't consider their suggestions. They move because the game is more active, different, interesting, the community is nice, competitive aswell as pub scene are both fun to play and they don't feel like the game has been "stucked" for 2 years (ik devs are working, but the non-release is frustrating :/)
Exactly, it's a different game. There is no way you can compare AC to Sauer, they're totally different, even the engine is different.
About the slow development, well, every game takes its own time to be developed, plus involving the fact that AC devs may have a busier real life or any other factors rather than Sauer's, so I would be thankful instead, because they may wake up someday and toss all of this in the air, and then farewell AC!

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: But I believe some suggestions were great and lots of people thought the same, however, most of those ideas were rejected or not implemented for some (unknown?) reasons.
Who knows, they may be implemented in future releases, why not? The game is in continuous evolution, it won't stop at 1.2. It will go on over and over, and if you take a look at the current dev status thread, you will be astonished by the many many changes to the game.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: The main thing reproached to devs isn't that they're not working (because some obviously are), it's simply that they have a massive work, and seem not to want to share a part of their task when many people are ready to help. And then when people cry/whine about the late release, they respond that they "don't have enough people to fix bugs and help the release"... paradoxal uh?
I didn't get this part, but if you mean actual sharing of their work, you can take a look at SVN, betas, report bugs, etc... But I honestly didn't get what you mean here, so I'm not sure about the answer.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Well when you develop a public game, you basically do it for those who play it. When you develop for free, the only difference is that the community shouldn't expect something from you, as you do it for free, you don't DUE anything because it is not a job. But when people from the community are ready to give their help & knowledge for free, to make the game better, why don't you accept it?
See above. You can help in anyway possible, by reporting bugs, etc. And AFAIK skilled coders have always been accepted in the team (see tempest, VonDrakula (not in the team but gave contributions), Brahma...

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: I'm not on the AC forums for very long, but correct me if i'm wrong; RK was active back in 1.0 version and was part of the dev team, during 1.1, i hardly ever heard about him being active on the AC forums but he's been back for like... 6 months?
Anyway, since he's back, i've notice that he has banned several persons everytime they would complain about something related to devs. Before he came back, I can not remember that many ban entries and not even a week after he came back active on the forums, he started the "stfu or ban" campaign.
RK was already active in 0.93, and probably even back. Please note that complaining about devs work is not the same as insulting, and he probably used to ban offensive people, not complaining people (lol, if so, half of AC forum would be annihilated at a glance :D)

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: I don't really appreciate the fact that some mods "allow themself" to remove, delete or silence what people want to say as soon as it's criticisms or remarks. If people who develop the game do not accept criticsm, advices or help... what are we left to?
Be quiet, and wait some more months sticking to AC ? People do not want that and it's basically the reason why people are leaving AC..
You may be right about the silencing people thing, but then again, there's always a reason. Posts that may be considered "dangerous" because of a flamewar coming from them, get deleted before they become harmful.
And I think it's better to prevent the illness rather than healing it.
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#33
(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: ....., the community is nice, ...
And who's to blame this community isn't nice?
Don't try saying dev's, cos its the users that make the community and all the shit going on is on their hands.
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#34
"flamewar" is the global term used whenever people talk a bit too much criticism and tell what they think in a honest & direct way; it's also an approximate good reason to close a thread...imo

(23 Apr 13, 01:57AM)Nightmare Wrote: Stayed up past midnight, took a few hours to put that thread together and had at least two devs say it was fine in the past and afterwards.

Sauer's different from AC, yep. Even tho Lucas pointed some of its "bad points", lots of people find it much more interesting than AC right now (I insist on the "right now", because AC is not what it used to be a year ago)

Hmm so Lucas, you think developers do not develop the game for those who play it? The game was created to be played, devs develop it to make it better and more successful, the more people play it, the more successful it is. Thus, we can say that the devs develop the game in order to make the players enjoy it and stick to it.

Some people suggested or even lead projects to make AC better. As for examples, i will start with you, Lucas with the server-list ; the pro-mod made by Z3R0, Nightmare & RR; the EyeofAC by GDM, the idea of a half-time switch by Larry, some scripts made by 888 aswell as things said in the "Ideas" thread.
All of those were made by people outside of the dev team, personally, by themselves, and i believe those people would appreciate to have the recognition that their work gets officially added to the AC package.
Things like ladders & ACWC could also get officially related to AC, it would make it feel less independant and could only bring positive things to AC... such as a united & active community.

And finally Lucas, when I use the term "devs", i don't especially mean YOU, even if you're included into that group; you guys are all different. I, personally, do like you as a dev, for your ideas, your activity and your presence & contribution to AC. However I disagree with some other devs, and I won't go further otherwise my post might turn out to be a flamepost again :x



EDIT : OpenSource, I do agree that some people in the community go too far in criticism and "war against devs", and maybe you would consider i'm one of them (which I wouldn't). As a consequence, devs became less opened to criticism & to remarks towards their work.
I'm not saying the community is perfect, but some elements among the community are willing to help and it seems the devs (or at least some of them) are reluctant to changing their way of working & relinquish some of their responsabilities & massive work for some (unknown?) reasons.
Lucas said they were open to help, yes, but they select and deny whatever they like/want and do not always include the community's opinion into it.
You can tell me they're right because they're devs and they decide how to lead the AC project, sure, but then don't be surprised if the community whines about the late release & not being involved enough.
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#35
AssaultCube's pub system IS chaos. Either you haven't actually played enough or then you're simply on the same level as the pub players. That is unfortunately true, there's no way to deny it.

I made a little experiment with my class mates and let them play a little AC. All of them said that the game seems to be interesting with it's rather easy gameplay but the pub game system is horrible. Everything is chaotic and ape like randomness. Gone are the days of mighty Drakas and his awesome servers that embraced us and brought all us together. But hosting servers isn't free and we didn't help him. Now he is gone forever and we can only blame ourselves. I'm afraid AC is a sinking ship but who knows if 1.2 will change things up.

Somethings wrong in the dev team, noway would majority of this community be "against" it otherwise. But you need to remember that this is their thing that they do for their free time. If you are constantly giving them shit and making idiotic points like DamDam does, who knows if they call it a day? I would be pissed if someone would mock my work 24/7. And the situation isn't that bad after all, I've seen alot worse even in commercial releases. This is really getting ridiculous.
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#36
(24 Apr 13, 03:49PM)pweaks Wrote: I've seen alot worse even in commercial releases.
I would like you to mention some examples of such worse commercial releases, please.
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#37
The problem isn't the devs listening, the problem is people "shouting" at them. Every jackass player just rolls up and tries to hold the dev team hostage, threatening to go to some bullshit child's game (no offense eihrul et al).

Every time I've had a conversation with a dev, whether it be bukz about onhit, kiwi about beer, or whomever (<3 RR), I always make sure to keep my criticisms positive. If you feel like you aren't getting listened to, grow a pair and find a way to say it in a healthy way. I remember a conversation I had with bukz that got a little heated, but not due to lack of respect (i hope), but simply because we both felt passionately about what we believed. The problem comes when there's a communication breakdown, and honestly, it's not from the devs, it's from the players and their perceived entitlement.
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#38
(24 Apr 13, 03:49PM)pweaks Wrote: ...Drakas and his awesome servers that embraced us and brought all us together. But hosting servers isn't free and we didn't help him.
I donated to Drakas, but ended up avoiding Hi-Skill servers because I didn't enjoy the atmosphere on them. Towards the end they became the pissing-contest, wankfests that inters are. I'm not saying everyone is the same as me, but it's wrong to paint Hi-Skill as the ultimate pub servers. IMO TyD/BC/A&D c. late 2008/early 2009 was better, but this is moot.
The hard part seems to be keeping four or six reasonably skilled players in the same server for long enough, before they disappear for an above-mentioned circle-jerk. On the (albeit, rare) occasions when I do experience an even, mixed-skill pub game, it's the same enjoyment it's always been. My advice is, if you're in an inter, suggest hitting a pub together; reverse the trend. Pick one where someone has admin.

Quote:...noway would majority of this community be "against" it otherwise.
There's no basis for this argument. The 'anti-' voice will always appear to be louder because the 'pro-' voice has nothing to argue for/against.

Sorry if it looks like I've singled you out, pweaks; that wasn't my intention. It's just that you've raised a couple of points that I see a lot, but they're rarely refuted.
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#39
(24 Apr 13, 03:49PM)pweaks Wrote: If you are constantly giving them shit and making idiotic points like DamDam does, who knows if they call it a day? I would be pissed if someone would mock my work 24/7.

Whenever I make a comment about AC development, it's not meant as in throwing "shit" and "idiot" points at the devs; not at all. I'm simply giving my opinion and also making remarks & trying to give advices on what could be done to ameliorate the relations between the community & the devs.
I never mean to be only a critical user who moans about everything I see, and if I do make a remark on something, I try to make it as constructive as I can.
I was pleased to see Lucas's recap thread after I posted that "we" do not always know what has been done and that whenever something was done, it would be nice to show it to the community. (idk if that inspired him at all, but at least i felt like..)
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#40
(24 Apr 13, 03:56PM)TheNihilanth Wrote:
(24 Apr 13, 03:49PM)pweaks Wrote: I've seen alot worse even in commercial releases.
I would like you to mention some examples of such worse commercial releases, please.

Mortal Online and Darkfall comes to my mind first.
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#41
(24 Apr 13, 03:56PM)TheNihilanth Wrote:
(24 Apr 13, 03:49PM)pweaks Wrote: I've seen alot worse even in commercial releases.
I would like you to mention some examples of such worse commercial releases, please.

When EA bought the Command and Conquer series from Westwood Studios, they released CnC Renegade and could have done a far better job. It could have competed with Halo at the time if they wouldn't have rushed it.
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#42
if they wouldn't have rushed it.
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#43
I'll pretend to be a dev to avoid having 10 more wall of texts then locking the thread, which will lead to a rage thread 2x worse.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: People are moving to Sauer not only because devs don't consider their suggestions. They move because the game is more active, different, interesting, the community is nice, competitive aswell as pub scene are both fun to play and they don't feel like the game has been "stucked" for 2 years (ik devs are working, but the non-release is frustrating :/)

Sauer is riding a high of their new release. We hope AC players who have moved to Sauer are only there temporarily. Here at Rabid Viper Productions, we covet our players. We believe another quake clone like sauer is no match for the unique gameplay that Assault Cube brings to the table. AC also has thousands more weekly downloads from sourceforge than Sauer, and this is an outdated 2+ year release. So we aren't panic'ing yet, this next release is high quality, and we believe our fans will embrace it with open arms once we fix this linux crash bug.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Ofc taking every suggestion into account is not the solution, otherwise it'd be such a mess. But I believe some suggestions were great and lots of people thought the same, however, most of those ideas were rejected or not implemented for some (unknown?) reasons.

Aye, we hear a lot about throwing rattrap into the trash and fixing up autoteam a bit, and lots of other things. As seen by my fellow dev, [email protected]'s thread, there have been lots of requests and we have added 1500+ commits to SVN taking care of some of these. We want the release out as fast as possible too, and that is our goal. If there are still major complaints about some things after 1.2.0.0's release, we will look everything over and consider fixing it up.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: [The devs] seem not to want to share a part of their task when many people are ready to help. And then when people cry/whine about the late release, they respond that they "don't have enough people to fix bugs and help the release"... paradoxal uh?

We will definately look at Larry's halftime mode feature if it gets done, and the hundreds of other contributions by our great players. We had a past issue with a dev who went crazy and started doing his own thing. So we have to be careful with who we choose to work with here.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Well when you develop a public game, you basically do it for those who play it.

Kind of. When someone starts a new game, they are usually making it because it's a dream game of theirs. Something they always wanted to exist. As maintainers, it's our job to keep that same gameplay and philosophy of the original AC creator. Maintaining, then new dev input, then player input. Those three things have to be balanced perfectly to keep the game both new and old, and hopefully more fun!

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: But when people from the community are ready to give their help & knowledge for free, to make the game better, why don't you accept it?

Some stuff gets accepted, some stuff doesn't. Even some dev work doesn't make it in(yet). RR's single player gema mode, vondrakula's drop gun code, my own fix of douze that removes the flying saucer, etc. It's a lot to take in, and with our limited time we don't always have time for all of the contributions. Eventually, we will see everything and consider it a bit more.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: Anyway, since he's back, i've notice that he has banned several persons everytime they would complain about something related to devs. Before he came back, I can not remember that many ban entries and not even a week after he came back active on the forums, he started the "stfu or ban" campaign.

Different philosophies. He believes banning anyone 'starting problems' will make an example of them and make others think twice about 'starting trouble'. I just want to have a friendly chat like this and resolve any complaints like gentlemen. Both ways work in theory. If my way shows to work, maybe other devs will do so as well and less controversy can occur.

(24 Apr 13, 08:55AM)DamDam Wrote: I don't really appreciate the fact that some mods "allow themself" to remove, delete or silence what people want to say as soon as it's criticisms or remarks. If people who develop the game do not accept criticsm, advices or help... what are we left to?
Be quiet, and wait some more months sticking to AC ? People do not want that and it's basically the reason why people are leaving AC..

We will warn our mods and admins to not be restrictive and abusive of their powers. It is mostly constructive criticism there to help us, not hurt us. A lot of us understand this and want discussions to be open and free, so they can be resolved through friendly discussions like this.

Hopefully I answered everything clearly. Thank you for supporting Assault Cube and helping grow the game.


btw count this as my application to be Lead Public Relations for the dev team. Having me talk instead of devs saves hours of dev time that could be used to go to play minigolf, doing more dev stuff, etc.
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#44
Ok. You want this simply? Just make me a fking Mod. Do it. I had the ability to delete my posts with my original AC Titan's privileges and never abused them. I'm a founding member of The Proving Grounds. I am AC's Resident Drunk. I am still playing this fking game after 5 years. Give me the chance to prove myself and I'll do it fking splendidly. I'll be a happy panda knowing I've been finally "accepted" into this shit. I can't dev. I don't know shit about it and couldn't contribute anything worth a damn that you all would understand. I have my own style. and I'm way to much of a drinker to learn numbers and stuff. However I'd make a badass Mod. I've seen all the shit, talked all the shit, been through all the shit that anyone past, present or future has ever talked and will ever talk. I know when Topics need to die and when they deserve a sip of Red Bull. Trolls will eat fiery balls of beatdown under my watch, and shimmies will be highly re-fking-garded. I'm still here after 5 years of hell and I'll still be here after 10 years of Hell Yes.

Peace out shimmies. I've discovered I really fking love HTF Shine, cuz NOONE can touch me on there. Bring it.
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#45
Nightmare Wrote:A load of bullshit.

Shut the fuck up for once in your life. You came here not so long ago from AssaultCube Reloaded of all places. Close those cunt flaps of yours and sit down. Stop getting involved with every little thing here, get a life and get the fuck off my forums.

I'm not one to have an outburst but you are one lousy sack of shit Nightmare. Get the fuck out.
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#46
umad draul?

#MORGANKELL MOD 2013
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#47
This is going nowhere.
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#48
I would add a personal note.

See, this is the purest example on how you can't live peacefully in a forum, it reached the second page and already turned to a flame, that of course had to be closed.

GG guys, shame medals for you.
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