AC 1.3 or AC 2, Your Expectations and Estimations

[grinch_k2]

To be honest, while I assume good intentions, this thread was potentially misleading from the start.

Don't get me wrong, if a group of enthusiasts comes together and creates something like AC on cube2/tesseract/unreal/source/...-engine, I'd definitly give it a shot. Yet, I wouldn't want it to replace the 'classic' AC, which is implied in your either/or-way of asking.

No, we should be talking about what do we really like about the game in it's current state. What keeps us old guys playing? What did the later newbies make stay? Of course, we also have to adress what feels broken or problematic, in order to enhance the gaming experience, yet there's no reason to 'discuss' it over and over again, without giving reasonable alternatives.

However, I'm not intending to defend the devs here. I only want to encourage a more constructive way of discussing. Of course, there're always two sides to it and yes there should be more information on what current developement is going on or what is planned. Devs, don't expect us to hang around on IRC all day to catch up everything going on. Just share your submits compiled into a handy list and your overall vision here on the forum every now and then.

Finally, some one who is not arguing or throwing random ideas but giving rational thought to this discussion. Though the intention this thread started seemed good, the discussions dont make sense anymore. (excluding a few).

Well to each their own. Hope the Devs get some positive ideas from this thread but I am not too hopeful.


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I HAD A DREAM...... damn i forgot wat it is wen i woke up

[Waffles]

So.... pause feature?

Please?

[Nightmare]

Dear, Steffy Claus.

I'd like 1.3 for Christmas and I've been a good boy this year.

-AC community

[DamDam]

1. AC 1.3 or AC 2 ?

Spoiler

Well, just like many people said, AC 2 would feel like a whole new change to AssaultCube which I don't think is necessary or will happen so I guess AC 1.3 sounds more reasonable since I believe it only needs a boost and some tweaks that could maybe save the game. Because yes, just like Persian's graphic shows, the game is dying slowly. Many of us called it about 2 years ago, and despite having more and more unhappy community members and more players saying they'd leave if there wasn't a change; nothing happened which led to this..

2. What new features would you like to be added on your chosen next release ?

Spoiler

- As many people, I believe the pause would be a great feature to add. Anyone denying it (looking at you stef) has probably never experienced what most requesters complain about and don't realise that it would be a really enjoyable feature to have.

- Half time switch as suggested by some players seems like a nice idea too, and would perhaps "solve" the unbalanced map issues. I think this is an idea to test, but I don't see many drawbacks to it.

- Being able to mod your own client. Ofc i don't mean cheating-wise, but being able to easily change skins, playermodels, pickups

- The idea was thrown around and I think it might a great improvement for AC but idk if it is possible (jamz plz?) : Separate the masterserver into 2 parts, an official one and a custom one. The first one would contain official map rotations with modes such as CTF,T/DM,T/OSOK,LSS,HTF and maybe allow some custom maps that are suited for those gamemodes (ex : Apollo maps, $n!p3r's maps). While the other one would be mainly for custom modes like GEMA, Zombie mode or other goofy maps like Twintowers, camper@camper which are maps that many players obviously enjoy playing on. Whether you like it or not, you can't deny that those servers are full most of the times which means that people actually have fun playing it. Also, most of the "accomplished" players now could confirm that we've almost all went through this TOSOK/LSS fun period when discovering the game, and eventually discovered more serious and "tactical" modes such as CTF,HTF,TDM etc...

- Remove all of the map restrictions. You've been trying too hard to remove the fun from the game. If people have fun playing goofy and crazy looking maps with tens pickups/m² then let them have their fun. It makes no sense to add restrictions to prevent people from having fun because it's not funny to you or because the game wasn't meant to be played like this.
Welp, the game has changed and developped, and if you can't accept that, you probably have nothing to do in the developping team.
To picture it with an example, it would be as if you were the mayor of your town and disliked blue color, and decided that from now on, you would prevent anyone from wearing blue because you hate the color and your town wasn't meant to have blue in it. (sounds pretty stupid uh?)

- Gameplay is fine as it is and I don't have much to say about it since it's what makes AC very special imo. But the weapon balance can be tweaked a little I think. The SMG is fine as it is, the sniper is a good weapon now, since a good sniper will manage to kill his opponent and take few damage providing he hits his sniper shot. Carbine is "OK" i guess, it's pretty strong if you have a good aim but risky since you will probably die to an automatic weapon user if you miss one shot. Shotgun I'm not sure, it's still a bad weapon to use in CTF 2v2s or 3v3s unless you're in a small map and know how to play the shotgun style (betting on splat, corner shots and close distance fights). AR is bad, pls bring back 1.1 Assault Rifle to make it even with the SMG power and I think we'd have a good balance.

- Official maps. Either remove some of it (cavern, scaffold, rattrap, stellar, venison..) or add a lot more to them (like i wrote before some of Apollos maps are great). I'm not really sure which is the best, but in one case remove maps that are unpopular and unplayed/unplayable (too small, too big, or too messy) OR add more "custom" maps that suit the official map style and are fun to play in official modes.

- After game stats are a good thing. I don't really care too much about my stats but I know many players do. Having a recap list of the things you did during the game (dmg dealt, flags stolen, # of pickups etc... pretty much anything that contributes to your score) would be great.

- Modes like TLSS, PF, TPF, TKTF, KTF should be added to the mod masterver. Those modes are rarely played and apparently not very fun to many people and it would make sense to put them as a option for custom servers. Also, maybe add Lucas's spawnpoint gamemode in the custom part for now, to try it and maybe make it official in a later version.

- An official ladder. Even though it might be hard to set up, it would be great if playing and trying to improve and play great was meaningful and if you could be rewarded for it in a ladder system.

- It's not really related to the next version but I wish there was more events organised from AC's official side. Atm it feels it's always external people who try to set up things and I wish there was more official tournaments organised by people who belong to the AC squad (which would most likely require to recruit more people into the AC team squad)

- Finally, I think having 2 years waiting before a release is a big no-no. It simply can't and shouldn't happen to a game and is what hurt AC a lot. A game needs to be active and changing in order to have its players keep interest in it. Unless the game is perfect, balanced and fun (which is hardly possible), there will always be things to change, add, fix or improve. It would make a lot more sense to have new versions or updates every few months or so, so that the game doesnt just stale for 2 years without a single change. (doesn't have to be major changes all the time, but knowing that the game is improving/changing is important in my eyes)

3.

Spoiler

The developping team is a big problem and also one of the major reasons why this game has been dying. I've said it 2 years ago, and I'll say it again and again. A team with developpers from an open source game, who do not wish to receive help from a community who's willing to help is wrong. This community has (or had) everything, whether it's for scripts (Bukz, grenadier..), maps (Z3R0, Exoduss, Undead, yopa..), mods (Cleaner, X RAY DOG, Krayce), weapon testing (Waffles, Vanquish, xenon, Sanzo), coding (Lucas, Larry, TheNihilanth, Phantom, FelixTheGhost), events (Nightmare, Endgame,Music) . All those people are/were part of the community and would have brought AC a whole new life if the dev team had been more opened to changes and requests.
It seems as though some developpers are so attached to the old version of the game they played with that they don't want it to change. Which is, when you think about it, pretty contrary to the idea of being a developper where you're supposed to develop and make the game progress.

To quote makkE, one of the most important developed and elder of this game : "I guess my personality got a little in the way of this project in cases. I think I was emposing my personal understanding of FPS gaming and my pride too much on this project without seeing the reality of the player's perception of the game [...] This has let to some rather unpopular decisions made by me and the team [...] at the time, my stubborness prevented me from just letting things evolve naturally, and to listen to those who actually played the game on a daily basis also those who put a lot of dedication into it."
Looking at you stef & RandumKiwi, throwing bans or warnings to whoever argues against your opinion.

To any of the developpers, if you don't want the game to change, you should just quit, people are/were ready to replace you and join the team. The game doesn't need you, the community doesn't need people who are constantly bitching about new ideas and who can't have an open mind to things that are suggested. I'm not saying every idea suggested is brilliant and should be implemented, but many ideas were brought to the dev-team eyes and were ignored or rejected without any explanations (Larry's half time code and pause , Undead's iceroad rework, the weapon balance, removal of some official maps...)

As for the "pause issue" which seems to be the big thing in this thread, it shows again through stef why the game is not progressing and why it's dying. Despite 90% of the people in this thread calling it a great feature to have, he stills camps in his position and claims it won't make any good use and there are alternative ways. What about no? We don't want your alternative ways, we want a pause. Just give the players a pause command. It's been successful in many games and many people have pointed out why it is useful or why it's a pain in the arse not to have one.

If you're already arguing over minor things (we're talking about a /pause command where the code was already written and tested (?) by Larry) that have been acknowledge by many people and where there's almost no negative points; how is it going to be when we discuss way more complex and sensible topics like weapon balance, masterserver changes or development team management.

Finally, to stef : When was the last time you've played a game of Assault Cube? Was it a public game or an inter/2v2/3v3 in the main quality mode which is CTF ?
Because I feel like you have an approach and view of the game that's pretty outdated, and it's very necessary for a developper to keep up to date with the game he's leading the development of...
If the development team is renewed and enlarged, I believe less than 6 months would be required to implement most of the changes that were mentionned in this thread.

To conclude

Spoiler

I'm not really sure whether we can still save the game and get it back to where it was (popular, fun with a pretty big player base) since many community people have left.
The generation of players that were between 14-18 about 3 years ago are now all moving forward in life and most of us are at university or working which leads less room and time to dedicate yourself to the game. Despite the fact that this generation of players was ready to help and dedicate time for this game 2-3 years ago, their help wasnt taken in account. Now those people either left or don't have enough time, and we're being surprised that the dev-team is so limited in numbers....
The problem is that the 2nd generation of players who discovered this game during the past 2 years and are/were 14-15 years old did not bother to stay. Or very few of them stayed (xemi, Luck, al3rt, Luxima on the top of my head).
Because of that 2 years abyssal period where nothing happened and nothing changed, people did not see the point of staying in a game where there was few changes, and where their fun was constantly challenged and pushed away (fighting for GEMA and "unconventional" maps to be allowed).
I'm hoping this game will be able to kickback, because quite frankly, I'm attached to it, but I'm afraid it is too late...

Anyways, that's it for my wall of text, I hope you'll take the time to read it all, if you care enough :>
I'm out !

[grenadier]

Being able to mod your own client. Ofc i don't mean cheating-wise, but being able to easily change skins, playermodels, pickups

Huh? Custom mods

The developping team is a big problem and also one of the major reasons why this game has been dying. I've said it 2 years ago, and I'll say it again and again. A team with developpers from an open source game, who do not wish to receive help from a community who's willing to help is wrong. This community has (or had) everything, whether it's for scripts (Bukz, grenadier..), maps (Z3R0, Exoduss, Undead, yopa..), mods (Cleaner, X RAY DOG, Krayce), weapon testing (Waffles, Vanquish, xenon, Sanzo), coding (Lucas, Larry, TheNihilanth, Phantom, FelixTheGhost), events (Nightmare, Endgame,Music) . All those people are/were part of the community and would have brought AC a whole new life if the dev team had been more opened to changes and requests.

Bukz, grenadier, Cleaner, X-Ray-Dog, Lucas are already on "evil" side, not community. ;)

Looking at you stef & RandumKiwi, throwing bans or warnings to whoever argues against your opinion.

Huh? This thesis is false.

To any of the developpers, if you don't want the game to change, you should just quit, people are/were ready to replace you and join the team.

What "people"? :)

I'm not saying every idea suggested is brilliant and should be implemented, but many ideas were brought to the dev-team eyes and were ignored or rejected without any explanations (Larry's half time code and pause , Undead's iceroad rework, the weapon balance, removal of some official maps...)

Since AC migrated from SourceForge to GitHub it is much easier to cooperate with community, feel free to show commits/code changes on GitHub, if they will be useful and correct, they will be implemented.

As for the "pause issue" which seems to be the big thing in this thread, it shows again through stef why the game is not progressing and why it's dying.

You are very wrong.

[Mousikos]

Meh. The one thing I think AC really needs is a big refactoring. Why is everything in cube.h? From a OOP point of view, it makes no sense. Think about the sound issue. If sound.cpp had been more than just #include "cube.h", wouldn't the problem have been fixed a lot faster?

[Vanquish]

..

All of your points were just glib and useless apart from the fact that AC's source code was migrated from sf to github. While I agree it is genuinely a good change, that alone won't be enough to make potential code contributors submit their work, since you give responses like "You are very wrong" without any elaboration whatsoever.

Where is the motivation for people to code patches for things like this if it they're sure the dev team will just shoot it down? The pause feature is a great example of this - Larry coded the entire thing and it just got brushed under the rug.
Speaking about the pause feature, the only reason it wasn't added is because some select few devs believe it doesn't fit with the game.
While I do appreciate and recognise that some developers do contribute with bug fixes, code and other important duties (really no sarcasm, it's appreciated), some devs take a backseat and do nothing besides shoot down people's suggestions - there is precisely no shame in putting your ego aside when the greatest reason you can come up with not to add a feature which is incredibly popular has been fully coded already is "I don't think it fits with [my vision of] AC".

Please don't reply to my post with sarcastic remarks or silly useless comments. Even if you dislike me I'm at least trying to be constructive, your last post was (mostly) not.

[stef]

Meh. The one thing I think AC really needs is a big refactoring.

Bullshit. Shuffling code around has never helped anyone.

From a OOP point of view, it makes no sense. Think about the sound issue. If sound.cpp had been more than just #include "cube.h", wouldn't the problem have been fixed a lot faster?

The sound code is exactly that part of the code that has been refactored by drian to OOP-it-up. Which is why it is now by far the ugliest part of to code. AC sounds can barely be debugged because they are OOPed at any cost...

The sound issue was fixed as soon as someone brought a demo that could reproduce the error. (Well, and jamz was nice enough to set up a build-environment on windows to test the fixes... because we have sooooo many people who are "eager to help", that one of the non-coding devs had to set up a build environment to get something tested on that fringe platform called "windows".)

btw, Vanquish, where is that rug?

[PhaNtom]

Bullshit. Shuffling code around has never helped anyone.

If you think this, you're no good programmer. Your code should always be in a constant state of refactoring for the purpose of improvement. Code that isn't refactored will end up a disaster like the majority of the AC codebase is.

The sound code is exactly that part of the code that has been refactored by drian to OOP-it-up. Which is why it is now by far the ugliest part of to code. AC sounds can barely be debugged because they are OOPed at any cost...

Don't blame that on OOP. Blame that on poor/implementation usage of OOP. OOP is only helpful when used correctly. This is exactly what refactoring is for. IF IT'S UGLY REFACTOR IT.

because we have sooooo many people who are "eager to help", that one of the non-coding devs had to set up a build environment to get something tested on that fringe platform called "windows".

Explain how windows is a fringe platform? Do you even check your facts before spouting out garbage? Windows is currently on 91% of computers.

btw, Vanquish, where is that rug?

Seriously. Do me a favor and stop acting all high and mighty. You quite frankly behave like an idiot to the users of a game you're working on.

I understand you're taking your free time to work on this game, but at least listen to the players instead of coming up with trash arguments as to why something shouldn't be included.

[Marti]

Why isn't the community allowed to pick new devs/replace old ones?

Oh and 1 tip: if you behave like a douche, everyone will be eager to help!

Ohwaitno

[PhaNtom]

Why isn't the community allowed to pick new devs/replace old ones?

^THIS

[Vanquish]

Vanquish, where is that rug?

->

Please don't reply to my post with sarcastic remarks or silly useless comments.

[stef]

Vanquish, why don't you just answer the question? This thread is full of people saying "there is that code, but noone would use it" - and yet, no one bothers to post a link...

[Vanquish]

I don't have a link. I'm not a dev, so I was never sent a copy of the code. :-)

[Nightmare]

Dear, Steffy Claus & Grenadey Clause

I'd like 1.3 for Christmas and I've been a good boy this year.

-AC community

[Halte]

Damdam was actually being honest and deserve a real answer. Me and all people reading this too. So could someone answer his post seriously and tell us why we can't do that or why it's not a good idea. It would maybe avoid these questions to be asked again.

If you already said something about that, please take 5 minutes of your time to copy paste it to the poor brainless players we are. I used the search button but didn't get the answers I was looking for. I removed from the list map restrictions, AR and official maps to be removed since I found many posts about that and people won't agree anyway.

2. What new features would you like to be added on your chosen next release ?

- The pause would be a great feature to add.
- Half time switch as suggested by some players.
- Separate the masterserver into 2 parts, an official one and a custom one.
- Having a recap list of the things you did during the game (that contributes to your score).
- Modes like TLSS, PF, TPF, TKTF, KTF should be added to the mod masterserver.
- Add Lucas's spawnpoint gamemode in the custom part
- An official ladder.
- More events organised from AC's official side.
- New versions or updates every few months.
-Lucas's client with country flag.

I just quoted ideas Damdam elaborated in his post (please refer to it for arguments). I actually like them and wonder why it couldn't be.

[PhaNtom]

Vanquish, why don't you just answer the question? This thread is full of people saying "there is that code, but noone would use it" - and yet, no one bothers to post a link...

Spoiler

[Cemer]

Why isn't the community allowed to pick new devs/replace old ones?

holy fuck the drama is back and i like it

[Mousikos]

Meh. The one thing I think AC really needs is a big refactoring.

Bullshit. Shuffling code around has never helped anyone.

From a OOP point of view, it makes no sense. Think about the sound issue. If sound.cpp had been more than just #include "cube.h", wouldn't the problem have been fixed a lot faster?

The sound code is exactly that part of the code that has been refactored by drian to OOP-it-up. Which is why it is now by far the ugliest part of to code. AC sounds can barely be debugged because they are OOPed at any cost...

The sound issue was fixed as soon as someone brought a demo that could reproduce the error. (Well, and jamz was nice enough to set up a build-environment on windows to test the fixes... because we have sooooo many people who are "eager to help", that one of the non-coding devs had to set up a build environment to get something tested on that fringe platform called "windows".)

http://arstechnica.com/information-techn...ewhat-now/

If OOP isn't working, you may need to figure out what's wrong with your implementation...

http://www.tutorialspoint.com/uml/uml_overview.htm

[grenadier]

All of your points were just glib and useless apart from the fact that AC's source code was migrated from sf to github. While I agree it is genuinely a good change, that alone won't be enough to make potential code contributors submit their work, since you give responses like "You are very wrong" without any elaboration whatsoever.

2 hints, 2 responses to offences, 1 rectification, 1 question.
"You are very wrong" is enough, because there is no need to back here to AC history, it wouldn't help in any thing.

You people think, that we are so blind, that we don't see many problems in AC and only ignore community? Nowadays there are only 2 devs, which regularly send commits changed source code (in a free time :)), the rest does it rarely. These 2 devs are stef and me, and only stef is very good programmer (regardless of opinion of some ignorants) and nobody knows AC engine as he; I'm weak programmer. We both are devs since only a few months (stef had about 4,5-year break). So we don't know any changes in source code made by "community" between 2010 - 2014 year, and won't know them, if somebody won't show them. And yes, we see, that in 2009/2010 there often played about 350 people in the same time, and now maximally about 100 (and half on crappy maps)...
Many wrong things are already fixed on GitHub, rest will be fixed in next release(s), for that though there is need a time.
And any risk and weird "experiments" can't be accepted (at least for sure not now).

Easier to discuss about "pause" feature, if somebody will show that already finished code, which was "tested (?) by Larry) that have been acknowledge by many people and where there's almost no negative points". Btw you focus on and fight for "pause" feature, as if it would be the most important thing to do in AC... No, it isn't.

Since migration to GitHub contribution to AC of "community" is sporadic (I don't count myself and stef before becoming the devs), only a few people did something (sent commits, bug reports), so I suppose, that currently none programmer isn't interested in contribution to source code and in consequence becoming the dev.

[Marti]

If there are only 2 devs, see my latest question. Why cant we pick new devs then? Or if you still dont listen to the community, pick a new (active pls) dev yourselves.

Oh and for the question 'can anyone show me larry's code?' Guess who has it and who you should ask, as if anyone goes sending some code around like "hey you should check this code i wrote but they wont implement"

Btw, what is the most important thing to in AC then? You should give us an update what you are working on.

[SKB]

If there are only 2 devs, see my latest question. Why cant we pick new devs then? Or if you still dont listen to the community, pick a new (active pls) dev yourselves.

If those people really wanted to be devs, they'd be sending in patches.

[stef]

If those people really wanted to be devs, they'd be sending in patches.

That is at least how every current dev started :)

@Marti: you can't "pick" someone to be capable

[Marti]

@Marti: you can't "pick" someone to be capable

picking might have been a bad choice to explain myself, but 'electing/nominating' someone with coding knowledge to be a dev is what i try to say

[stef]

same problem: you can neither "elect" nor "nominate" someone to be capable.

In the past, someone who was interested in contributing code worked himself into the codebase and started writing fixes and patches and gave them to someone on the project. If, after some time, someone proved (which is the key word here) to be capable to work on the code on his own, he could become a dev team member. I'm sorry, but that's the way it has to be. Also, that's not unique to AC... that's pretty much the same in every project. Although the word "Meritocracy" tends to provoke shitstorms, it still describes quite well, how reality works.

Our codebase still contains a lot of proof of what happens, when someone is allowed to work on it, who just claims to be capable.

PS: one is certainly allowed to sport an attitude like "I'd like to help, but the code is too ugly", but it (surprisingly?) won't get you very far.

[Orynge]

@Marti: you can't "pick" someone to be capable

picking might have been a bad choice to explain myself, but 'electing/nominating' someone with coding knowledge to be a dev is what i try to say

Why the hell should people with no knowledge of coding be able to choose coders? Game developers aren't politicians.

[Roflcopter]

I haven't had time to read everything but from what I can tell, stef, you are rather in the minority against pause. At the end of the day, this feature won't impact any public players. Like Waffles points out: every (or almost every) competitive player wants it. If during a match the "5 remaining players" decide they can always unpause -- this only provides an option.

Honestly I think it's more likely that pause is a difficult feature to implement that no one really wants to attempt. If it's not something the developers will provide, they could at least give the assurance that a well-tested, clean branch implementing pause would be merged. Otherwise no one reasonably wants to risk wasting their time on such a thing.

[stef]

You must be joking... not even a dev gets such an assurance.

How about you try to figure out, how that function should behave in detail? For example, what should happen to a player in the middle of a jump? What should happen to an armed or thrown grenade?

[G1gantuan]

i hope i'm just being stupid

but if a pause was actually called and everyone currently in the match agreed on it then why would they involve themselves in such useless endeavors

wow such a simple feature is blowing my mind to the waters. help

" If during a match the "5 remaining players" decide they can always unpause -- this only provides an option." i don't understand this sentence in particular

[Roflcopter]

You must be joking... not even a dev gets such an assurance.

Why not if the code is good?

How about you try to figure out, how that function should behave in detail? For example, what should happen to a player in the middle of a jump? What should happen to an armed or thrown grenade?

I don't have a strong preference on these things. I'd probably be happy with whatever was a side-effect of the way I coded pause. What do you suggest?

" If during a match the "5 remaining players" decide they can always unpause -- this only provides an option." i don't understand this sentence in particular

I'm saying that if someone disconnects in match mode and the remaining players don't want to wait they can simply unpause!