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I really like that the site is back up now, and I like to see development going on again. However, I have some major concerns that have evolved while watching some previous events, which are as follows:
- Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- The announcement of closed binaries (you do know that this has failed many times before, right?)
- A general tendency to sacrifice everything to fight the cheaters (the success of which is disputable)
- A major security breach of the website, but no information given about it (come on, everyone should know by now that the "security through obscurity" concept is not valid). Were mail addresses leaked? Might malware have been distributed? Bah, don't you care.
- A general attitude of acting like a parody of a commercially-oriented company
All of these points are contrary to what is usually expected from open-source, community-oriented projects. Why? Because you are leaving out exactly those, the "open" part through closed binaries (effectively destroys it, because how would you successfully host your own masterserver) and the "community" part by acting like The Great Dictators on them.
Yes, I'm neither a developer nor a moderator, I don't do the hard work on this project. I would respect it if those people would just tell us that they do what they, and only they, want. Just tell me.
Yes, this thread might be closed or deleted in the blink of an eye. But maybe think about it before you do. Thanks.
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2. not everything is closed source, just the anti cheat stuff will be (AFAIK)
4. so why did I know about it? :) Malware can´t be distributed as the source and the game itself is on the sourceforge servers
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20 Jun 10, 08:52PM
(This post was last modified: 20 Jun 10, 08:57PM by tempest.)
2. "closed binaries" was maybe a bad choice of words. I was referring to this post. Now even if you want to just recompile the client to run faster on your system (or run on a system that isn't officially supported), you won't be able to connect to most of the servers, because only the special official clients can.
4. True, but there's a nice collection of exploits for most browsers that can be put onto any website and work through things such as drive-by downloads. And, btw, what did you know about? ;)
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tempest, the post you mention states "The server's closed bins...", ie. the only closed bins will be server bins.
If the devs could get away with distributing closed (ie. difficult to modify) client binaries to eradicate cheating (or truly believed it would work), they'd probably do it in an instant. However, they have an open-source community to cater to, and are trying to stick to open-source principles as much as possible. I guess.
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(20 Jun 10, 07:37PM)tempest Wrote: A major security breach of the website, but no information given about it
Just ask them nicely and they will tell you what the problem is/was :)
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21 Jun 10, 12:18AM
(This post was last modified: 21 Jun 10, 12:21AM by Apollo{TyD}.)
(20 Jun 10, 07:37PM)tempest Wrote:
- Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- A major security breach of the website, but no information given about it (come on, everyone should know by now that the "security through obscurity" concept is not valid). Were mail addresses leaked? Might malware have been distributed? Bah, don't you care.
1)
I've looked into the modertor's logs - there is no evidence that something ever happened as implied since the forum has been reopened.
2)
Read this post. You won't get more. And I think it is enough to know already.
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1)
Being a subject of this myself (lol) I know i deserved it. The moderators generally only close threads that are harmful or have been gravedugged? Well I think there is usually a reason for it.
2) They have told us most of what happened though I still want to know if any emails or passwords were leaked.
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21 Jun 10, 01:40AM
(This post was last modified: 21 Jun 10, 01:41AM by RandumKiwi.)
Quote:Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- There have been none. If there were, they'd show in the logs and in the pool of "undo delete" posts, which is a tool that can be used.
Quote:The announcement of closed binaries (you do know that this has failed many times before, right?)
- I don't deal with this, so can't comment.
Quote:A general tendency to sacrifice everything to fight the cheaters (the success of which is disputable)
- .. and if people are cheating, what's the point of playing?
Quote:A major security breach of the website, but no information given about it (come on, everyone should know by now that the "security through obscurity" concept is not valid). Were mail addresses leaked? Might malware have been distributed? Bah, don't you care.
Security through obscurity doesn't work on it's own. However, it does work in combination with other security methods. Is keeping your password a secret, security through obscurity, guess what? It is.
The fact is, that although we have ensured there is better security by DESIGN now, if we were to be hacked, the first step any hacker takes is to gather information, and guess what! Obscurity delays, or stops this. We are NOT going to advertise the inner working of our systems, just to satisfy you, which would advertise those details to potential hackers also. We are NOT relying on obscurity for security, but yes, we use it, because we aren't idiots (see passwords).
We don't have to tell you anything about it whatsoever. We are not obligated to, at all. The fact that we have told you what we have so far, is enough. Site was breeched, we fixed it, end of story. Wanting to know anything more than that, is purely for gossip and/or curiosity. For your comfort, I will let you know that:
* Yes, emails may have been leaked.
* No, malware wasn't distributed.
* We recommend you change your passwords used on the site, just in case, however, they were encrypted so it shouldn't matter too much.
* Yes, security systems in place now are far better than before.
* Yes, the initial security issue that caused this trouble (as mentioned before in the development forum, it was a PHP exploit, executed on an insecurely written page on the main site - not the forum), has not only been removed, but also had several changes put in place to minimise or stop the damage, should such incidents occur in the future (which they won't).
Quote:A general attitude of acting like a parody of a commercially-oriented company
No sufficient evidence for this, you're just throwing dirt around.
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21 Jun 10, 03:35AM
(This post was last modified: 21 Jun 10, 04:33AM by Duh.)
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- There have been none. If there were, they'd show in the logs and in the pool of "undo delete" posts, which is a tool that can be used.
You did delete parts of Hellspells post.
For the ones that dont know what it was about: After the 40+ servers got banned from the MS, they started a second one for servers on and off the original MS. It is however given that, if you dont want to be on their MS, you can request it to be taken off. Deleted was -as far as i could tell- the link to a "how-to-get-the-new-MS"-guide
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:A general attitude of acting like a parody of a commercially-oriented company
No sufficient evidence for this, you're just throwing dirt around.
As I cant read through the old forum, I am not sure on how correct my statements are. So please excuse and correct any mistakes that i make. Also this matter is greatly depending on personal opinion so some may say the issues leading to such a conclusion are trivial, while others may understand or even agree with them.
You could get the idea of a commercially-oriented company rather than a user/community commited team due to your decisions on masterserver requirements and the way you enforce those:
Your map rotation must not contain badly constructed, or poor maps.
However who defines poor and bad? Why is the official emphasize on construction issues and not maps that are offensive? As this has been discussed in the 40+ forum (can i link them or will this get me banned?) before, I ll quote part of what i stated there. (Please also consider that those posts were made before the release of the new version, so im not sure whether the cheat/hack issue still applies)
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)Duh Wrote: ... if i remember correctly the official reasoning has always been the following:
Since Assault Cube is growing and becomes more and more popular the developers want to create certain standards to guarante quality in their game. It is therefore their goal to get rid of racist, sexist, offensive or just badly done maps in the maprot of servers hosted on the masterserver.
Just like all of you I certainly agree with the first 3 points, but when it comes to badly done maps there are several issues coming up (esp. because all maps not in the off. maprot can at any point considered to be bad :D):
- The first and simplest one (So Sir Simpleton says) is that it depends on personal taste. Sure you can have a few guidelines, but if in the end a select group gets to choose what is good and what is bad, there is no way of avoiding personal preferences and maybe even decisions based on sympathy or the opposite.
- The second one is that it takes away mappers chances to experiment and improve. To grow from noobs to pros. No matter what, you start low and the maprot of a server was always encouraging for newbies and actually a goal achievable unlike the offcial map package.
- The third, which i have mentioned several times before, is that Assault Cube has - despite the fact that its free - not much to offer. It is a game designated to have a short life for most players, since the graphics suck, the maps - yes the official ones - lack in variety, certain modes dont have maps that truly support them or at least not many, there is few variety in weapons, there is basically no protection against cheats and hacks. With the new rules even things like server hosting by yourself or your own maprot will vanish and the game loses yet another 2 of its rare pros.
4.th some people like to play on shitty maps :)
Vanish is aiming at server hosting by people new to this game and still might be a little too harsh. I think however it is safe to say, that the number of servers by newbies will decrease.
By the way... for some reason i do love this game :D and i am thankful for the development and have a great deal of respect for that. Even tho great parts of the love are also linked to our communities:
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)Duh Wrote: What kept AC from dying are the different communities that have developed over the time. They offered protection via well maintained blacklists, they offered competition via clans, matches, recruitments and even ladders, they offered new variety by adding maps, models, textures and even scripts.
Now some may say - including me - that it seems as if the devs dont realize that this game is built on its community. Why do I/we have that impression?
Because of the way they enforce their rules: With a banhammer and without compromise. Even though some of the points i made further up are quite valid, the developers do not give in an inch on the masterserver issue. But why do you HAVE TO ban a server just, because SOME think the maps are not high quality? Dont you think that there are other ways?
1. Trust people that they are capable of leaving servers with maps they dont like.
2. Mark the server with official maps, put them on top of the masterserver, and let the server with "bad" maps stay at the bottom of the list.
3. Split up the masterserver into official and inofficial servers (kind of like point 2).
Why dont you go for those?
Again a quote from the 40+forum, this time part of an answer to stefs inquiry there.
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)Duh Wrote: Sure that would require some work, but not much more than controlling and banning does.
The difference is that these 2 ways offer either a big banhammer for the devs or a happy community. In my opinion - and im not saying im correct - the devs have decided for the former and it wasnt the right decision.
I am sorry that this post got so huge and i thank you for having the patience of reading completely through it. This problem has a wide range and i tried to stick to the most important issues here (rules and enforcement).
Greetz hanze.|Duh| (Not MNCMM :D)
EDIT: Its more of a try to explain than an argument Dreamer. Opinions always differ, buts its better to understand yet disagree instead of just dislike. I am also well aware that the developers decide, which is why communicating with them is even more important :).
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oh great, not this argument again...
"However who defines poor and bad? Why is the official emphasize on construction issues and not maps that are offensive?"
The developers decide. The end.
Now go away.
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(21 Jun 10, 03:49AM)Dreamer Wrote: The developers decide. The end.
Now go away.
LoLpwned.
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(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- There have been none. If there were, they'd show in the logs and in the pool of "undo delete" posts, which is a tool that can be used. There have been none? What about all those people complaining about it, were they lying? Also, i'd appreciate it if you could tell me why this was closed.
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:A general tendency to sacrifice everything to fight the cheaters (the success of which is disputable)
- .. and if people are cheating, what's the point of playing? As a player, you can ban the cheater. If you can't, leave the server. Period. Just don't be too bothered, because that's what really takes out the fun.
I agree, though, about the non-obvious cheaters. However, as I said, the success rate is modest (although there have been some nice successes, e.g. Davitomon), and it's in fact impossible to tell for sure if someone is cheating or not.
4. Thanks for the information.
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:A general attitude of acting like a parody of a commercially-oriented company
No sufficient evidence for this, you're just throwing dirt around. Well, imo you do.
"There's us, and we decide what's good for everyone else. Ah, and there's also the users, btw." (strongly exaggerated, but it slightly feels like that)
Also, the way in which cheater cases are decided reminds me of ccp's policy (We said it, we know it, period.) I did notice that Brahma asked well-known and experienced players, though.
As said, this is your project, you develop it, you are running the masterserver and so on. You [i]have[i] the right to do everything with it. I just doubt the way you're doing it (as it appears to me) is really the best.
Ah, and btw... yep, this is pure flames. Give me some time to cool off, but I guess most concerns will remain.
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21 Jun 10, 07:37PM
(This post was last modified: 21 Jun 10, 07:38PM by StRaTo.)
Well, I've been away for a while, and I don't want to irritate anyone, but there are a couple of things that don't add up.
First off:
(21 Jun 10, 01:40AM)RandumKiwi Wrote: Quote:Repeated deletion of "unwanted" or "uncomfortable" posts/threads by devs and moderators
- There have been none. If there were, they'd show in the logs and in the pool of "undo delete" posts, which is a tool that can be used.
This, is quite plainly untrue. Several of my threads were deleted, primarily the ones where I started an argument with Drakas. I'm not sure even he could deny that he deleted some of posts that said negative things about him, even if they were true.
The second thing, and the thing that worries me, is that you didn't investigate security sooner. Quite a while ago, as you may / may not remember, my account on the forums was hacked by Archangel, to change my name and make a post, because I was immitating him. I don't know if all of that was fixed when the MyBB forums were implemented, but if it wasn't then someone could probably have gotten in. Unless it was just the devs screwing with me.
In which case it would be no cause for concern.
(Old forum name was "Intel", btw. Yes, I was an annoying little **** and no, I'm not now.)
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The course of AC is that it's going down the shitter. Really guys, closed binaries to stop the just absolutely huge cheating problem Assault Cube has. It's sad to see AC go.
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22 Jun 10, 11:10AM
(This post was last modified: 22 Jun 10, 11:12AM by Matasar.)
Whats wrong with closed binaries ?
I think that someone known that has need for the game to develop will be able to work with source if they ask for it.
Look at punkbuster, costing a fortune to use i belive and is always behind the cheater in progress.
And thats on closed bins.
What good does that do ? A system will never work as only solution.
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(21 Jun 10, 03:49AM)Dreamer Wrote: oh great, not this argument again...
"However who defines poor and bad? Why is the official emphasize on construction issues and not maps that are offensive?"
The developers decide. The end.
Now go away.
What a great response. You're trolling.
And you people want to continue to have a game that remains successful yet you can't even discuss things like adults? You just tell people to GTFO.
No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.
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We're not entitled to anything. Be thankful.
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(22 Jun 10, 10:59PM)Fonzy Wrote: (21 Jun 10, 03:49AM)Dreamer Wrote: oh great, not this argument again...
"However who defines poor and bad? Why is the official emphasize on construction issues and not maps that are offensive?"
The developers decide. The end.
Now go away.
What a great response. You're trolling.
And you people want to continue to have a game that remains successful yet you can't even discuss things like adults? You just tell people to GTFO.
No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.
Good. If people don't like the rules then they can leave. They aren't the ones spending time developing this game, so they don't get to make the rules.
http://woop.us/what-makes-the-games-suck#newcomers
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23 Jun 10, 08:22AM
(This post was last modified: 23 Jun 10, 07:44PM by MorganKell.)
(22 Jun 10, 07:20AM)Zomg! Wrote: The course of AC is that it's going down the shitter. Really guys, closed binaries to stop the just absolutely huge cheating problem Assault Cube has. It's sad to see AC go.
What are closed binaries?
(23 Jun 10, 12:12AM)Gibstick Wrote: We're not entitled to anything. Be thankful.
You ARE the weakest link.
(22 Jun 10, 10:59PM)Fonzy Wrote: No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.
Actually I agree with this where Dreamer is concerned. xD xD.
(23 Jun 10, 07:07AM)U|Zarj Wrote: Good. If people don't like the rules then they can leave. They aren't the ones spending time developing this game, so they don't get to make the rules.
Hmm... so many things have popped into my head to write for this one, but I just can't settle on any solid choice... so therefore I leave you with this...
.93 FTW FTW OONCEY UBER SMACK TAP SHIMMYSLAMMARAMA BANANA HAMMA PWNSLAPTIZZLE UBERWIZZLE SIZZLE BAMBOOM BIGMUTHATRUCKIN BANNNNNNG .93 FTW .93 FTW .93 FTW SHIMMY SHIMMY SHIMMY
That feels better. :D. Have fun shimmies. While I may lament the loss of the past, I am excited about the future. Personally I've never felt a fresher feeling playing this game than I have recently. The exception of course being .93.
For the Honour!!
------------
Speak in syllables flavored with understanding and coolness, and discussions/threads/debates/flamewars/ownslappage will be done right... with STYLE.
Shimmy Shimmy.
-edit- Incendiary? Thank you for the compliment first of all, but I must disagree, if this is incendiary then I'm the Queen of England. I wasn't trying to offend anyone, relax shimmies.
"While I may lament the loss of the past, I am excited about the future. Personally I've never felt a fresher feeling playing this game than I have recently."
This was the point of my post.
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Only one question remains unanswered.....
WHY IS MORGANKELL SO GODLY!?
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Closing because this is just flames now...
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23 Jun 10, 04:06PM
(This post was last modified: 23 Jun 10, 04:06PM by makkE.)
...
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RK, if this gets closed you will sorta contradict yourself.
Even if this is becoming a flamewar wouldn't it be in everybody's best interest to have a place to complain and give constructive advice without getting a 20% warning?
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23 Jun 10, 06:31PM
(This post was last modified: 23 Jun 10, 06:33PM by Brahma.)
OK....
Let me express my opinion.
We face some groups of members in this forum:
- * Newbs: those who enter here and create a thread called: "Help me Please", and when you enter the post is: "How can I start a server?"
* Common members: those who play the game for some months (or some years), enjoy it, and taste common comments in the forum: "The ratio whores sucks... I am good without cheats... the nade spammers should be controlled... ctf ac_power is the best combination..."
* Causal incendiaries: those who never post, but when post try to put fire in something and contribute for nothing: "The course of AC is that it's going down the shitter."
* Incendiaries: those who spam, offend and attack other members: "so many things have popped into my head to write for this one, but I just can't settle on any solid choice"
* Politics: those who writes posts like mine with the intention of "questing for respect", to "influence other people" or arrogantly "try to put an end in this ****" and bring the forum back to its trails.
With exception of the common members and the newbs, all others are very apt to receive warnings.
If you do not have anything constructive to say, say nothing. If you cannot help, do not try.
But, if you are willing to help and discuss, read your post 3 times before post... ask yourself: "I am contributing, or just spamming?"
The excess of spam and flaming made the devs get out of this forum.
And after see a thread like this one, the reason is very obvious.
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btw... about "closed source", AC is open source, you can get it in sourceforge and compile it, and this will not change.
The only change is: along with the sources will come a closed binary server... if you do not want to use it, do not use. This closed binary server will include anticheats... just this, nothing more.
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(23 Jun 10, 06:31PM)Brahma Wrote: The excess of spam and flaming made the devs get out of this forum.
And after see a thread like this one, the reason is very obvious.
Brahma mang really? There's nothing wrong with this thread. Everyone is taking this way too seriously... it's just a bunch of chitter chatter nothing more.
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23 Jun 10, 11:04PM
(This post was last modified: 23 Jun 10, 11:06PM by Dreamer.)
(22 Jun 10, 10:59PM)Fonzy Wrote: What a great response. You're trolling.
And you people want to continue to have a game that remains successful yet you can't even discuss things like adults? You just tell people to GTFO.
No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.
Ok, you're right, maybe I went about responding the wrong way, and I apologize. However, Don't think that this 'issue' hasn't been discussed, and discussed, and discussed. Over and over again. Its not that we don't want to talk about it, its that its already been talked about, decided upon, and laid to rest, just for someone new to bring it back up again, thats all.
And really, I don't think 'the developers' care if people decide to leave. It isn't about quantity, its about quality.
Also, MorganKell, I know you don't like me. I get it, I really do. But, please, can you just leave me alone? I'm really tired of always being attacked by some members of KH. I would really appreciate it if we could all just move on.
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I compile AC server on deb-etch 64, normal pre-compiled version don't run there, we will see how it will works, but there is some true that server's binaries should be optimized by that compilation. It is against linux philosophy not to compile it.
On the other hand how hide anti-hack features of new AC server. It is great dilemma. Better would be opened server sources, compiled launcher of AC client which would send proper information to MS (masterserver). Something as Trojan Horse of AC client. :)
The question is if there will be automatic kick or still hidden analyze of cheats by people at MS which will lead to next political and clans' mistrust. Which information will be send from my server to MS. It seems me that my server will be remoted tool for anticheat people which will not be too funny.
How i said, we will see. It will not be simple.
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One thing I want to know though: will normal vanilla clients be able to play on servers compiled from the publicly available source (i.e. non-anti-cheat servers), and will they show up on the masterserver as normal?
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Quote: will normal vanilla clients be able to play on servers compiled from the publicly available source (i.e. non-anti-cheat servers), and will they show up on the masterserver as normal?
Yes... there will be no difference to the client if the server is anticheater or not (except if the client is a cheater)
Quote:The question is if there will be automatic kick or still hidden analyze of cheats by people at MS
No... no autokicks and not demoparsing
Quote:Which information will be send from my server to MS.
No info will be sent from the server to the ms (or to the clients regarding anticheat policy)... it will be the same as now, with the difference of anticheats in server side disrupting the game of the cheaters.
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