Some notes concerning the course of AC

[Viper]

TBH I think we are learning a lot about people with this thread. :)

We can try to take some sort of action or we can sit around and flame.

The former is a better idea guys. Do SOMETHING, don't just talk.

*at everyone not just devs

[Dreamer]

Lol, I think the only issue is that the devs are doing LOTS, they just aren't telling us about it all (which is fine with me), and everyone else (common players) sees lots of problems with cheating, but lack the power (or position, or whatever you want to call it) to do anything about it.

Don't worry, my friends. Everything will be fine.

[Zomg!]

"Causal incendiaries: those who never post, but when post try to put fire in something and contribute for nothing: "The course of AC is that it's going down the shitter.""
lol don't fucking categorize me. What I said was true. While that wasn't contributing it needed to be said.

[Fonzy]

oh great, not this argument again...

"However who defines poor and bad? Why is the official emphasize on construction issues and not maps that are offensive?"

The developers decide. The end.
Now go away.

What a great response. You're trolling.

And you people want to continue to have a game that remains successful yet you can't even discuss things like adults? You just tell people to GTFO.

No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.

Good. If people don't like the rules then they can leave. They aren't the ones spending time developing this game, so they don't get to make the rules.
http://woop.us/what-makes-the-games-suck#newcomers

What an arrogant response. It is quite typical of this place. First, I must say that I do not visit this forum daily nor have I posted more than a half-dozen posts. I apologize in advance for making assumptions and if I am incorrect of certain things but my opinion is.. I am more a rare lurker however I have read some of the comments made by the "Regulars" on here and there's this sickening attitude amongst some members of the community. It's this notion that "It's my way or the highway." "You don't agree with me, I won't listen." "My opinion > yours." This arrogant and often demeaning attitude is what strives to make this place less appealing than it can be.

The Dev's have every right to be proud of their work. They have provided us with a game that is easily accesbile and offers hours of fun. It is a game that doesn't require lame 15 dollar monthly fee's or offers members special weapons or anything. The game is fun. No question about it. However, when one begins to try to sell their game to the world, the point is to provide a community that is fun. The game is. The forum, not so much. At the same time, some members get this feeling that they are better than others. Sure, your in game skills may be better but that means shit in the real world and in terms of personal preference. We're not born to like similiar things. We all don't come here to bow down to the higher authority because we dream of becoming forum mods one day. Some of us just want to play this game. Truthfully, in game the people are very nice. Plenty of great clans and great personalities out there. It's rare that you see flaming going on because one person holds a 5 ratio while another holds a 1.

The Dev's can certainly make all the rules. However, it's also a game developers choice to listen to the opinion of the community or if he chooses to ignore them it shows a sense of arrogance. It's fine if you don't like certain things but you don't have to belittle people in the process. There is no reason to have to flame someone for having an opinion or a like that is not the same as yours. This is the situation that I have seen quite a few times. One person has a varying opinion and they get belittled. It's arrogance and it's disgusting.

This is a game forum. There is competition. There is insults based on who's better and who can kick who's ass. I am not trying to open up the discussion regarding which maps are good and which aren't. Or any other previous debates that you guys have shared. It's about the way people present themselves.

Dreamer,brings up a fair point in his response below. Thats it's not about quantity but about quality. That is true, to some extent but you also don't want a community that only has 100 quality members and nobody else. You want to expose this game to allow for other players to show up. 75% of the time they will be moronic noobs but perhaps that 25% can provide to become good players, good companions and be a positive addition to AC. However, such things will not happen if the game and it's players continue to act hostile.

I imagine some will not bother to read this because of their arrogance. They will just choose to:

What a great response. You're trolling.

And you people want to continue to have a game that remains successful yet you can't even discuss things like adults? You just tell people to GTFO.

No wonder why so many people leave the game and become uninterested. Some of the people have their heads stuck up their asses too far.

Ok, you're right, maybe I went about responding the wrong way, and I apologize. However, Don't think that this 'issue' hasn't been discussed, and discussed, and discussed. Over and over again. Its not that we don't want to talk about it, its that its already been talked about, decided upon, and laid to rest, just for someone new to bring it back up again, thats all.

And really, I don't think 'the developers' care if people decide to leave. It isn't about quantity, its about quality.

Also, MorganKell, I know you don't like me. I get it, I really do. But, please, can you just leave me alone? I'm really tired of always being attacked by some members of KH. I would really appreciate it if we could all just move on.

I fully respect this response. I am not a regular on this forum as I mentioned and I can imagine the frustration when old debates keep being brought up. It is often the case on any gaming forum. It can be a pain but you just have to continue to deal with it, unfortunately. The same patience needs to be shown like a parent shows their children when they ask the same question over and over. However, I think there must be some modifications met so these same debates don't keep sparking over and over. Or atleast a sense of respect towards others opinions in regards to suggestions or that a group enjoys to play certain different maps rather than the standard ones.

[MorganKell]

Dreamer you know I love you. Did you miss the "xD xD"?? Was totally meant in jest. xD xD.

Fonzy, I read / skimmed through your post and you make some valid points. Huzzah.

This is actually the most fun thread on the forum for me. I like seeing the different sides of a debate going at each other. As long as people don't make any stupid decisions, like leaving AC, because of something someone says on the forums, everything will be OK. Just remember to go ingame and cool off by unleashing some hellz on some noobz. Sound cool?

::goes ingame and fragz noobzzzz:: OH YEAH STEP INTO A SLIMJIM!!

[Brahma]

Well.... welcome to this forum, Fonzy.

[Zarjio]

Fonzy, the reason my response are so short is because this issued has been discussed to death, and the end result is always the same: if the devs want something to be done, they will do it. They don't have to make the game fun, they don't have to support what the players want. They can do whatever they like.

As for any 'arrogance' being shown, I apologize, but I assure you it is not because of any skill level I hold in game, there's a reason my user title says "Wish I could pwn...".

And a little extra info for you:
Myself and Brahma were once two of the people fighting the most to keep the maprot rules less restricted. However, as I stated earlier, when it comes down to it, what the devs say goes. (And, personally, I also realized that poor quality maps create players who are not really interested in AC. When their EMJEZ_GEMA_HEADSHOT_LSS_BRAZIL_TENNIS suddenly disappears, they stop playing. Either that, or they start playing the more serious maps, and its generally only then that they become involved in the community. Poor quality maps lead to people who don't really care about AC).

One last point:
A lot of people would be happy with just 100 'quality' members in this community. The reason I have continued to play AC for a little over a year is because of the people I have met here, and the friendships I have developed (even if only over the internet). If AC were to suddenly grow to become extremely popular, it would take away a huge part of the game. Many people like the fact that this community is small, and stays small (at least I certainly do personally).

[Undead]

i stopped reading fonzy's argument when he demeaned the awesome power of runescape /offtopic.

[ElCrema]

Some lads just like their crappy ultra laggy maps or their crazy gemas, they have no intentions of getting involved with AC community whatsoever, they don't post in the forums, 90% of them don't even acknowledge that AC has one, they don't wanna play matches, don't wanna be in a clan or make friends here, they basically just want to come around to pubs and shot some dudes to get rid of the daily life stress and choose to do so in funny looking, poorly built maps.
Should the devs allows servers to run this horrible and yet strangely popular maps. Don't know, since this kind of players are usually restrict to a handful of servers I don't see much harm, but having AC turned into a cheap looking ffs might not be a good idea either.

Before you say anything about me revisiting this discussion yet again, let me just say that I brought this up just to show you, what to me, is the central point here:

1 - Is AC aiming to grow and get more players?
2 - Or the idea here is to develop the game in order to please and maintain this actual community?

Do we want a better game play for pubs or for private games?
Whats more important: get new players or keep the actual (clan!)players happy?

Lets hope AC 1.1 finds a balance between the above options...

[Bukz]

It's simple, the masterserver showcases servers that run quality maps, LAN servers should be used for when you wanna play EZJEM_OMGWTFWAFFLE_V2.0_RELOADED_WITH_SHUTES_AND_LADDERS - it's that easy.

[jamz]

... EZJEM_OMGWTFWAFFLE_V2.0_RELOADED_WITH_SHUTES_AND_LADDERS ...

Be honest. You made up that map name, didn't you?
I was on v1.8 last night, and was assured that it was the latest version.

[Alien]

Players' interest should decide which map is good or bad and not some "important" political "nice" "100%" community members. This is game and players aren't stupid who need your "important" bullshits and advices. Ezjemvill and gema maps are training maps for noobs, if you will not offer them similar one, don't hate them and don't ban them. It looks like "i make maps in this style, you must love them."

[Mr.Floppy]

I don't really understand, according to tempest's concerns mentioned in his first post, how the issue of map qualitiy is relevant in here...

Though, I can't just ignore it somehow. Actually, you have to keep 3 fundamental aspects in mind when it comes to judge on a map's quality:

1) Performance
2) Gameplay
3) Aesthetics

-Performance

Any game engine has its technical boundaries and mappers/level designers have to obey them, regardless they like it or not. If you try to stress the engine far beyond its capabilities the map won't perform well and therefore be an annoyance. On commercial games you're more likely to loose your job as level designer, in case you can't manage to work within the given limits. The documentation coming with AC pretty much explains the most important things to keep an eye on, in order to create a well performing map. Bad performance is, above all, _the_ k.o.-criteria for maps, whatever game it was made for.

- Gameplay

AssaultCube provides certain weapons, player behaviour (jump height etc.), game modes and so on. Any map is supposed to allow for the game's intended gameplay. Even though, there is always room for variations, there is no point in limiting the gameplay to jump-and-run only. Its a first-person-shooter and the main goal is to frag your opponents. I guess everybody likes to play maps, which offer a completely different kind of gameplay from time to time, but again, such maps need to perform well and they should after all be rather exceptions (read: not to be on the maprot).

- Aesthetics

Some people seem not to care at all, as long the gameplay is fun, whether a map is 'beautiful' or 'ugly'. After all this is more about personal prefernces. Though, keep in mind AC has an overall theme and is supposed to be somewhat realistic (pseudo-realistic). Besides that there are textures which need to be used as supposed to. It is nothing but weird using window textures for floors or brick textures on ceilings for outdoor areas. Not to speak of hundrets of different light colours and such outrages of pseudo-creativity. Along the official set of maps you can already find different kinds of mapping styles, which at times differ quite heavily. Though, summing them all up, it's still somewhat homogeneous.


Any game needs to be consitent to some degree in order to appeal both, newsters and long-termers. Remember how you found out about AC and what kind of screenshots (e.g. of official maps) you may have seen. Then you launch AC the first time and suddenly find yourself in a weird looking map, far from the pseudo-realistic game you thought AC was, your FPS dropping down to almost unplayable conditions. Will you be atracted?

On the other hand, long-term players surely will get more or less bored with the official maps they've been playing 2 or 3 years already. Then, the only new maps to be seen on the pubs are weird looking maps which perform badly, lack in gameplay and feel completely out of place. Will you be atracted?

Mappers have to understand that they have some sort responsibilty towards the game when they publish maps. They have great influence on how players see/enjoy the game. The devs have always encourage community mappers and setting up restricting rules, for sure wasn't expected when they started to develop this game.

The major problem is, that there are groups of people who don't acknowledge AssaultCube as a game, but treat it like their personal playground. This people aren't willing to cooperate with the community or the dev team. They keep arguing the game was for free and open source and this would allow them to do as they please. As long this attitude won't change, restrictions will have to be made in order to prevent AC from becoming an inconsistent accumulation of egoistic show-offs.

If you do not understand any of what discribed above, you should consider well if you are qualified to take part in such discussion or even to question the dev's decisions and motivations.

[Revert]

2. not everything is closed source, just the anti cheat stuff will be (AFAIK)
4. so why did I know about it? :) Malware can´t be distributed as the source and the game itself is on the sourceforge servers

Actually its quite possible to bind a Malware file to a custom map for instance and when you download that map you would download Malware I havent tested it nor will I but it might be possible. :(

[Viper]

Lol, I think the only issue is that the devs are doing LOTS, they just aren't telling us about it all (which is fine with me), and everyone else (common players) sees lots of problems with cheating, but lack the power (or position, or whatever you want to call it) to do anything about it.

Don't worry, my friends. Everything will be fine.

And intelligence. :)

[PolarHedgehog]

I cba to read what you guys talking about, but just a reminder of how things go around here;

Normal argument evolves in a very short time into a flamewar, which again leads nowhere, because the devs usually just go and ironfist everything.

So i'm probably speaking for everyone here, shut up and carry on with your lives, please, it'll save lots of nerves and not like you'll make a difference anyway.

close the thread lul

[Alien]

If you do not understand any of what discribed above, you should consider well if you are qualified to take part in such discussion ...

Nicely said "shut up". There is only one direction. :D

I dont want to discuss about quality atributes, it is mappers' stuff.
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Starcraft 2/starcraft - http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/
see what is possible to do with starcraft, very good sites are www.iccp.com, you can play soccer, poker, pokemons etc. and ofc normal starcraft tournament official maps, you can create server with custom maps, regulation is made by choosing type of maps

TrackMania - http://forum.trackmania.cz/viewtopic.php?t=247
very good game many many very nice custom maps, you have your textures, songs and cars in maps, i remember very good formula 1 mod in USA servers:)

Wolfenstein ET - http://returntocastlewolfenstein.filefro...sions;4856
- i was very often shocked what i can play in this game :P

Assault Cube - quadropolis.us and akimbo, but in game you can see only ctrl+c ctrl+v maprots from "nice", "100%", "important" community members. No one have balls to create thematic original servers with custom maps. ac_dust and ezjemvill isn't what i mean. Training server for aim, for moves, for 1v1. Space maps, ship maps, western maps, etc. Here is only ac_complex and ac_desert style. :/ People more thematic maps! For example i created [aCKa]Pirate server, but i found only 4 maps for this theme. (3 of them lags) :/ Noobs in each game like custom maps, because in default maps are better players. This was obvious after 1.0 release. (0.93 players just pwn them there) And nobody is attacking on default game maps, it is impossible and who thinks it he is paranoid. For example Gema maps is very interesting mod of AC and succesfull.

[ElCrema]

@ Mr.Floppy

I do agree with almost everything you say, the only thing that relle beats da crap out me here is that every time that I look in the MS the servers running the crap laggy maps and gemas are packet full, and I mean for real: EVERY TIME.
We might not realize it, but there is a whole alternative AC community going on at this servers, these dudes exchange emails, talk on aim/msn all the time, make their own clans, and what seems to bring them together is the fact that they do appreciate the: EZJEM_OMGWTFWAFFLE_V2.0_RELOADED_WITH_SHUTES_AND_LADDERS kinda maps

It just makes one wonder how come "unplayable" maps gets played so often and by so many and notice that A LOT the players on those crappy servers are not newcomers, some of then are in the "crappy map" underground world of AC for quite some time...

Someone's trash is another man's treasure...

[#M|A#Wolf]

I do like the occasional Krizzly's Funhouse tbh :)

[Lightning]

How about having a seperate tab for Crap map servers? You could always restrict the number of them. Like keeping only half the crap ones there are good ones.

['Roscoe']

Who determines what map is 'Crap'. As TheCrema mentioned, people play and obviously enjoy playing on what some of you here are calling 'crap' and 'laggy' maps. Maybe they play 'crap' and 'laggy' maps because to them official maps are 'crap'. This could be one of the reasons why people decide to make those kinds of maps, simply because they are bored of official maps or have fantastic PC's that don't lag on EZJEM_OMGWTFWAFFLE_V2.0_RELOADED_WITH_SHUTES_AND_LADDERS maps.

@Lightning, the idea is one to be thought about but fix your english,it's crap. Building upon your idea, maybe have tabs that you can customise by adding servers you believe have 'crap' maps from servers that play good maps. This just means that YOU can decide which maps are crap and which maps you personally enjoy.

[Alien]

@Roscoe
But ezjemvill and gema maps are crappy and laggy , you are a bit confused. I don't know anybody who thinks that official maps are crappy or you yes ? These noobs don't play official maps because they are loosers there. You can see many of them in tosok ac_desert camping.

As beginner you learn some skills step by step, if you meet on Hi-Skill server 15 ladder players, you are dead in 5 seconds, you must just stay certain time at crappy maps.

There are also retards which play these maps and have skills, i don't understand them.

[makkE]

Floppy said it all, very well put. Whoever loves to play boring point-and-click in ugly, laggy maps - go ahead and do so. Nothing stops you. All we did was to prevent these servers to overshadow the real game, in favour of those who appreciate the finer points of this game.

['Roscoe']

@Alien: Exactly what I mean, that is your own oppinion. What I am saying is some people DO enjoy what you call crappy and laggy maps. I wouldn't use the terms 'noobs' or 'losers'. They just have a different way of playing the game, I guess.

Btw: calling them noobs really is a stupid thing to say and don't make so many generalisations.

[sja5164]

Can't we all just get along?

Oh, I guess not...

I understand the desire to keep all servers playing "official maps", and certainly the devs have every right to block servers that don't conform to their rules. It's their game, their masterserver, their code, etc, etc.

If you want to play ridiculous maps, host a private server.

[tempest]

In my opinion it's good as it is right now: there's enough servers with "serious" maps to enjoy a (imo) good game, but if you want to play EzJemBlahBlah, you can do so, too.

[Fonzy]

Fonzy, the reason my response are so short is because this issued has been discussed to death, and the end result is always the same: if the devs want something to be done, they will do it. They don't have to make the game fun, they don't have to support what the players want. They can do whatever they like.

As for any 'arrogance' being shown, I apologize, but I assure you it is not because of any skill level I hold in game, there's a reason my user title says "Wish I could pwn...".

And a little extra info for you:
Myself and Brahma were once two of the people fighting the most to keep the maprot rules less restricted. However, as I stated earlier, when it comes down to it, what the devs say goes. (And, personally, I also realized that poor quality maps create players who are not really interested in AC. When their EMJEZ_GEMA_HEADSHOT_LSS_BRAZIL_TENNIS suddenly disappears, they stop playing. Either that, or they start playing the more serious maps, and its generally only then that they become involved in the community. Poor quality maps lead to people who don't really care about AC).

One last point:
A lot of people would be happy with just 100 'quality' members in this community. The reason I have continued to play AC for a little over a year is because of the people I have met here, and the friendships I have developed (even if only over the internet). If AC were to suddenly grow to become extremely popular, it would take away a huge part of the game. Many people like the fact that this community is small, and stays small (at least I certainly do personally).

Fair enough. I can understand where the frustration comes from when you guys revisit the same arguements.

However, I have to say that I think a community is better off growing than staying with a standard amount of members. I think it's just a fear that things will change when they won't. That community that is only a 100 will dwindle down eventually because it may be the same old, same old. And when more people leave, the trend will continue because it won't be as big as it once was. If there are new members actively joining it can add some life to the community and keep people interested. Hell, even trolls serve their purpose in the sense that a flame war with a troll can be super entertaining.

The Devs can do what they want but there's no point if only 20 people are left playing their game that they create.

@ Mr.Floppy
Someone's trash is another man's treasure...

I think this may be the best quote to describe these maps. It is true. It really is.

@Roscoe
But ezjemvill and gema maps are crappy and laggy , you are a bit confused. I don't know anybody who thinks that official maps are crappy or you yes ? These noobs don't play official maps because they are loosers there. You can see many of them in tosok ac_desert camping.

As beginner you learn some skills step by step, if you meet on Hi-Skill server 15 ladder players, you are dead in 5 seconds, you must just stay certain time at crappy maps.

There are also retards which play these maps and have skills, i don't understand them.

And this is another one of those posts that is so biased. No, the people who EZJEM or OldVillage or GEMA's are not noobs and are not losers. I myself enjoy a good GEMA from time to time and I also love playing the old hanze maps (EZJEM, although only the version(s) that were less lagggy), Oldvillage, Wintertown and I've also enjoyed Headshotcity and a few others from time to time. When I first began playing Assaultcube I could not stand the AC maps. I disliked all of them except Dust. I've grown more accustomed to them but the main reason I stay on those servers is due to the ladder and the interesting aspect it adds to the game. It's great to see your score being cumulated over time. I'm certainly no retard and there are other people who are not retarded for playing these maps. It's called personal preference. It's called being different than you. It's called having an opinion that doesn't go with the majority.

Not everybody is going to like what you guys like. There are some good players that play those maps. There are some good people on there as well. At the same time, there are many noobs. Certainly. However, if you were to load a map of mostly skilled players in a map like Ezjem with no camping, it turns out to be a great map to play and very fun. I think this lag issue is overplayed because there are some AC maps that lag for me (Elevation being one that I remember off my head right away).

It's such a sickening notion to think that people who play those maps are retards, losers or any other deragatory term you want to use for them. It's just a matter of preference. And clearly, the preference is there since some of those servers generate quite a few people to being there. If you want, you can consider half of them noobs but thats okay, maybe some noobs go there because the competition is less as fierce. Perhaps one day those noobs will go to your AC servers and play there because they are more confident (I only use noobs to relate with you here, I don't think they are) or maybe they never will and will continue enjoying the different structure of those maps. Hell, not everybody likes Call of Duty, some may prefer to play Halo or some other game.

[Alien]

@Fonzy
you cannot create "competitive" custom servers, custom server should be made for other purposes like training parts of your skill, showing art skills etc. Ladder server must be only with default maps. No ac_dust2 or ezjemvill with ladder. I doubt that noobs on that maps would know that there is some ladder behind. It doesn't make sense to have ladder there. If you as admin create ladder there, you are rushing official maps.

Next have you tried real custom maps for example ac_aim, ac_grenade, sniper_arena, which don't lag and improve your specific skills ? You cannot find them ? Ask current server admins where are these maps ?

[LaNterN]

[Fonzy]

@Fonzy
you cannot create "competitive" custom servers, custom server should be made for other purposes like training parts of your skill, showing art skills etc. Ladder server must be only with default maps. No ac_dust2 or ezjemvill with ladder. I doubt that noobs on that maps would know that there is some ladder behind. It doesn't make sense to have ladder there. If you as admin create ladder there, you are rushing official maps.

Next have you tried real custom maps for example ac_aim, ac_grenade, sniper_arena, which don't lag and improve your specific skills ? You cannot find them ? Ask current server admins where are these maps ?

Eh, nobody was discussing about creating competitive custom servers or creating a ladder for those servers. Not sure why you bring that up (Perhaps it was a past arguement but not what I wrote) The point was that people who play the custom maps shouldn't be called retards, noobs, idiots or any other deragatory term. It's a simple matter of personal preference and being different than you.

As for your 2nd paragraph, I am not sure what you are trying to prove by it. Your skills improve by playing more consistantly and with players who are good if not, better.